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I don't think we all want the same

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things I think there are many people who

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want their their group their tribe

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however they define it to win at all

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costs and they will sacrifice the truth

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entirely to to to get what they want and

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no I don't think we all want I think

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without the taming respect for the truth

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yeah that's what it descends to this

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next guest needs no introduction it is

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the always charming lovely edifying

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rebecca goldstein and in this

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conversation we talked about girdle's

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incompleteness theorem its relationship

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to truth as well as the laws of physics

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potentially we also talked about her

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views on sam Harris's moral landscape

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how does she justify her morality given

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that she's an atheist and doesn't

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particularly like notions of

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transcendence or God and last we talked

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about something she's never revealed

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before which is her thoughts feelings

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conceptualizations of that debate that

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she had with jordan Peterson enjoy

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I'm here with Rebecca Goldstein and

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we're going to talk all about girdle's

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theorem incompleteness theorem as well

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as

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progress rationality and the

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enlightenment okay Rebecca thanks for

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coming on my pleasure so tell me what

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does your day-to-day schedule look like

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how are you productive

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I feel very unproductive actually you

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mean as of late or as may be 2016 when

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so politics have become too interesting

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and I faced it all so a lot of time you

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know politics and I'm reading up on

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politics and doing whatever I can so I

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sometimes wonder whether when historians

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intellectual historians look back on

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this period whether they're going to see

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a different activity just because of you

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know how well consuming politics can get

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so anyway when I am productive

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I am productive because I become

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obsessed and so I you know when I'm

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working on a problem time just flies you

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know and I you know I get right to work

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and I can work for 18 hours straight

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in fact I've when I was writing the book

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on goodall's incompleteness theorems in

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particular I you know I kind of ruined

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my back because the day would just fly

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by and I had it moved from my desk feet

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for most of it is do you write with a

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pen and paper do you write with your

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laptop I'm getting into the details yeah

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I write with the laptop you know that

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was in slow process I it was very late

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to doing that

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I've thought I needed to do I do

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diagrams and all of this sort of thing

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when I'm mapping out ideas the structure

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of an argument is always extremely

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important to me you write the diagrams

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on the laptop or with a pen and paper

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paper but then the actual sentences are

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always composed on a laptop and you know

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it's it's terrific for someone like me

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because I'm realizing I revise and

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revise I realize each sentence

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I don't like write a whole book and then

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go back to rising up which I do anyway

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but I go sentence by sentence and you

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know sentences can be written seven

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eight times yeah so a laptop right oh

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okay

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do you find that most of your work is

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reading or actual writing where I

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remember I was talking to Pinker and he

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said something like 80% of his time it's

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been reading yeah he reads a lot

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I read much less I you know for my work

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because he is he's a great cattle you

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know he he takes from this person from

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that person and he and then he puts it

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together and something that's greater

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than the sum of its parts I think that's

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one of his tremendous talents but I I'm

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different I I certain attacks problems

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usually on my own I mean there there

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there usually are more amenable problems

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and I so for me it's thinking more than

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writing very looked I'm thinking and

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looking around my walk around the house

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you know and I walk outside and I walk

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you know so our processes are very

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different I know this is gonna sound

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like I'm getting so much of the details

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but do you tell pinker or anyone who

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else is around to not talk to you when

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you're walking and thinking for example

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for me when I think I look like I'm

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angry so my wife always wants to ask if

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I'm okay and and I have to tell her to

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bark at her until they're like don't

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please if I if I look like I'm angry I'm

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likely just thinking so when this light

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is I have a light when this light is on

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just don't talk try your best to not

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talk don't even

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he looks at me I know a reticle but if

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she looks at me I feel bad so I have

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please ignore me so what are your rules

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I don't know that I've ever explicitly

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laid them out but people can tell and

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they were respectful so I have I'm also

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from a former marriage to children and

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they you know so they were little

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children when their mother was thinking

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and I remember once I was you know

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cooking dinner and one of my daughter's

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had a little friend over and little

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friend asked me something and my

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daughter said don't bother her she's

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thinking and the friend said she's

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cooking and my daughter said trust me

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she's thinking so that's when I knew

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that they could read my expression and

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they were extremely respectful of it so

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I've been lucky okay let's get into

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girls incompleteness theorems look I

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don't mind why don't you explain to the

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audience just a brief overview of what

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they are yeah so that yes as you say

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there are its in the plural there are

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two of them and and what they have to do

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with are the limitations of formal

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systems and formal systems which are

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very very important in logic and

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mathematics are rule governed systems

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for proving things are kind of proof

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mechanisms in which everything that you

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can do in the formal system is defined

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by a rule recursive rules are extremely

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important in formal systems and these

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are rules that you you can apply to

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something and then you can apply that

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rule to the results that you got and

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applying the rule ever and ever and ever

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so for example we can generate

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the integers that way just keep adding

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one to the results you got before and

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you'll have another integer so this is a

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lathe you can you know define the

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completely rule burned just one rose

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right after you said this is how you

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define integers algorithmically yes so

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this is how you know that that formal

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systems they have rules mechanical

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procedures algorithms these are all

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inter twined concepts and and they were

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very very important in mathematic you'll

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early mathematics because of the

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discovery of the paradoxes of set theory

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which showed us that our intuitions in

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mathematics were not trustworthy you can

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derive certain paradoxes and so the idea

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was okay we're just we're going to

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reduce mathematics to formal systems so

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just these mechanical rules that will

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eliminate our reliance on intuitions on

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what seems to us to be true and just

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have these mindless rules but you don't

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even have to think about meaning the

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kind of thing that can be programmed

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into a computer and so it and and

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actually from these notions of formal

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after goodell you we did get computers

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actually so that this is anyway so the

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incompleteness of the areum's are about

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the limitations of formal systems this

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is not a way to solve it turns out the

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paradoxes of set theory it's impossible

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what you want from a formal system is

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that everything you prove in it is true

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for sure you also want that everything

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and that's what the first thing

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completeness theorem tells you cannot be

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true for a retic everything that we can

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prove that a formal system of arithmetic

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is true but not everything that's true

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can be proved in a formal system and

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then you can try to add an axiom to that

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formal system so that you know you can

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capture the thing you couldn't prove in

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the previous one well you can perform

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you can derive other propositions that

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won't be provable in that system and on

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and on infinitum so that's the first

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thing completeness theorem there are

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true propositions about the integers it

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can't be proved in any formal system and

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so and then the second incompleteness

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theorem is also kind of devastating

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because the one thing you really really

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want from your portable system is that

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it be consistent that is that you can't

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prove a contradiction in it you can't

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prove for some proposition P that both P

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and not P it's true and of course that

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would be contradictions or false so that

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would negate you know the first thing

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which is that everything you prove in a

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formal system is true but it's much more

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serious than that because technically in

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formal logic from a contradiction

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anything follows so you can prove

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absolutely anything I can prove that one

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equals three I can prove you know I can

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prove anything in an inconsistent system

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so the fact that when you're using a

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formal system you cannot itself prove

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its consistency is is kind of yeah you

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can go outside of the system like for

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example giving a model for the system

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that will show that it is consistent so

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it's not that we're

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but within one of the things that you

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can't prove within a formal system is

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the consistency of that system itself

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that's the second incompleteness theorem

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I'm sorry yeah okay okay so I'll make a

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synopsis just for people who are

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listening in math you have a statement

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like let's say that even plus even

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equals another even number so you take

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two even numbers equals no how do you

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know that that's true for all even

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numbers you have a proof it's almost

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like the way that I like to explain it

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to people is like Sherlock Holmes you

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have the dead body and then you want to

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say who killed and then you go step by

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step there's well there's shoes here and

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the shoes can only belong to a man

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because it's so and so and and the dog

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didn't bark because they know that so on

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so on so these okay great so now we've

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gotten step by step deductively we've

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gotten to the conclusion therefore this

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conclusion is true okay now the question

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is does the reverse hold okay well if

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something is true can you always prove

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that it's true if for mathematicians for

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a while it was like what does it mean

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for something to be true and not proved

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okay but then girdle said there are some

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truths inside a formal system you fix a

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formal system there are some things that

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we can just see from the outside that it

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has to be true but we can also see from

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the way that it's constructed that you

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can't prove it within the system okay so

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that's the first one the second one is

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also that you can't prove in your own

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system your the consistency of your own

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system otherwise would come in

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consistent consistency just means like

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Rebecca you just said you can't prove a

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and not a at the same time yes okay yes

274
00:14:16,410 --> 00:14:15,040
so why does that matter what does that

275
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:16,420
matter to people like that just sounds

276
00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:18,250
so esoteric to most people who are

277
00:14:24,030 --> 00:14:20,260
listening yes it does sound very

278
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:24,040
esoteric well it was as he said you know

279
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:27,040
um we had always depended on these sort

280
00:14:33,540 --> 00:14:29,290
of on these intuitions like if you could

281
00:14:35,550 --> 00:14:33,550
if you have a predicate you know forming

282
00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:35,560
a predicate you can form the set of all

283
00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:38,290
things that satisfy that predicate so

284
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:41,230
the predicate of like being an American

285
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:43,930
president you know there are how many

286
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:47,530
people 45 right 45 people who for whom

287
00:14:52,530 --> 00:14:49,360
that is true I think I think Trump is

288
00:14:58,590 --> 00:14:52,540
the 45th president anyway according to

289
00:15:01,860 --> 00:14:58,600
some people so you know it's a dear SEC

290
00:15:04,650 --> 00:15:01,870
SEC that satisfies well there that just

291
00:15:06,810 --> 00:15:04,660
seems you know intuitive for every

292
00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:06,820
predicate you can form the set of things

293
00:15:12,990 --> 00:15:10,180
satisfying that predicate and set theory

294
00:15:16,050 --> 00:15:13,000
dependent on that well considering this

295
00:15:18,330 --> 00:15:16,060
consider the following set the set of

296
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:18,340
all sets that aren't members of

297
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:19,090
themselves

298
00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:26,170
so is there such a set turns out there

299
00:15:31,020 --> 00:15:28,870
there can't be such a set because a set

300
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:31,030
of all sets that aren't members of

301
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:32,890
themselves if it's a member of itself

302
00:15:37,650 --> 00:15:35,170
then it's not a member of itself and

303
00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:37,660
it's not a member of itself it is a

304
00:15:42,750 --> 00:15:39,700
member of itself that's a classic

305
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:42,760
paradox it's a member of itself if and

306
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:44,890
only if it's not a member of itself that

307
00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:47,920
was a paradox discovered by Bertrand

308
00:15:52,950 --> 00:15:50,220
Russell the philosopher Bertrand Russell

309
00:15:55,770 --> 00:15:52,960
there were other paradoxes but that's a

310
00:15:58,110 --> 00:15:55,780
classic paradox that still sounds like

311
00:15:59,850 --> 00:15:58,120
it doesn't matter so how does this

312
00:16:02,970 --> 00:15:59,860
matter to someone's day-to-day life or

313
00:16:04,980 --> 00:16:02,980
does it not matter well let's see if it

314
00:16:07,770 --> 00:16:04,990
matters it so it is something about

315
00:16:10,860 --> 00:16:07,780
mathematics it matters in terms of as

316
00:16:12,900 --> 00:16:10,870
you it sort of indicate it what makes

317
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:12,910
mathematics true mathematics is a little

318
00:16:17,550 --> 00:16:14,890
mysterious because it's not empirical

319
00:16:19,860 --> 00:16:17,560
right you know we that's why

320
00:16:22,260 --> 00:16:19,870
mathematicians are so cheap for a

321
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:22,270
universe can hate to hire right they

322
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:25,810
only require blackboards and chalks and

323
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:29,410
erasers basically and yeah and there's a

324
00:16:33,540 --> 00:16:31,450
joke connected to that that philosophers

325
00:16:36,060 --> 00:16:33,550
are even cheaper because they don't

326
00:16:37,230 --> 00:16:36,070
require the eraser especially never you

327
00:16:42,540 --> 00:16:37,240
can't ever discover you've made a

328
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:42,550
mistake in philosophy but um you know

329
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:46,170
whereas physicists and all the empirical

330
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:48,370
scientists they require laboratories

331
00:16:54,210 --> 00:16:51,130
servitor is you know all this expensive

332
00:16:57,060 --> 00:16:54,220
stuff you know accelerators and God

333
00:16:59,790 --> 00:16:57,070
knows what so so what is it and that's

334
00:17:01,800 --> 00:16:59,800
because you know mathematics you know

335
00:17:03,580 --> 00:17:01,810
that the information is of carried

336
00:17:05,740 --> 00:17:03,590
inside your crane ship you know

337
00:17:08,590 --> 00:17:05,750
all here are the axe teams work out the

338
00:17:10,570 --> 00:17:08,600
consequences still this is a little bit

339
00:17:12,790 --> 00:17:10,580
mysterious and you're what makes

340
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:12,800
mathematics true there are these two

341
00:17:18,550 --> 00:17:16,010
basic views you know one is that you

342
00:17:21,340 --> 00:17:18,560
know they're they're the kind of a super

343
00:17:24,190 --> 00:17:21,350
a sensible reality that we are somehow

344
00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:24,200
being able to access with our little

345
00:17:28,690 --> 00:17:26,240
finite minds and being able to prove all

346
00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:28,700
these things about and you know many

347
00:17:34,750 --> 00:17:32,030
magnitudes of infinity and you know Wow

348
00:17:37,450 --> 00:17:34,760
aren't we something or there's a few

349
00:17:40,750 --> 00:17:37,460
that look it's just it's like a higher

350
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:40,760
form of chess it's just some rules it's

351
00:17:45,730 --> 00:17:43,250
a game we lay down the rules and then we

352
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:45,740
see what falls right

353
00:17:51,370 --> 00:17:48,170
and so mathematics is really just the

354
00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:51,380
sign of mindless rule following we're

355
00:17:55,210 --> 00:17:53,150
surprised by the things just as we're

356
00:17:58,480 --> 00:17:55,220
surprised in chess them you know what

357
00:18:00,940 --> 00:17:58,490
can ensue just from these finite set of

358
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:00,950
rules but you know but okay you know if

359
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:02,330
we had implements we'd be able to see

360
00:18:07,990 --> 00:18:04,210
all the consequences of our rules

361
00:18:09,970 --> 00:18:08,000
gödel showed that first there's

362
00:18:13,780 --> 00:18:09,980
something wrong with that first answer

363
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:13,790
right it can't just be a matter of rule

364
00:18:17,890 --> 00:18:16,160
following of mindless rule following

365
00:18:18,970 --> 00:18:17,900
that's and he was a plainness but and

366
00:18:21,790 --> 00:18:18,980
that's up to you that you know

367
00:18:23,020 --> 00:18:21,800
mathematics is kind of independently

368
00:18:25,630 --> 00:18:23,030
true

369
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:25,640
you know the june the moons of jupiter

370
00:18:31,630 --> 00:18:27,770
was spinning around Jupiter before we

371
00:18:33,550 --> 00:18:31,640
put the telescope to our eyes and so two

372
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:33,560
mathematical truths you know that

373
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:35,510
there's just an infinity so I mean in

374
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:37,760
that sense it's interesting here's the

375
00:18:46,330 --> 00:18:41,570
other thing people have claimed very

376
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:46,340
large consequences from girdles and

377
00:18:57,460 --> 00:18:49,010
completeness theorems about both mind

378
00:19:00,280 --> 00:18:57,470
and matter so and girdle also considered

379
00:19:01,630 --> 00:19:00,290
about mind if there were consequences I

380
00:19:08,260 --> 00:19:01,640
have a little story about that maybe

381
00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:08,270
I'll get you but it was an argument that

382
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:10,910
was first published by philosopher Lucas

383
00:19:18,370 --> 00:19:14,330
John Lucas in I think 1964

384
00:19:22,060 --> 00:19:18,380
arguing that girdles incompleteness

385
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:22,070
theorems show that our minds can't be

386
00:19:28,450 --> 00:19:25,730
digital computers that even in our doing

387
00:19:30,990 --> 00:19:28,460
mathematics we're not doing it formally

388
00:19:33,220 --> 00:19:31,000
that's how we know that these

389
00:19:36,130 --> 00:19:33,230
propositions that we can't prove are

390
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:36,140
true and that even our mathematical

391
00:19:44,250 --> 00:19:40,250
knowledge can't be programmed into a

392
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:44,260
digital computer therefore we are not

393
00:19:50,550 --> 00:19:47,210
computers right right right right and so

394
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:50,560
that is and Roger Penrose the great

395
00:19:58,420 --> 00:19:55,570
physicist polymath wrote two books

396
00:20:02,170 --> 00:19:58,430
arguing such things now the uppers in

397
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:02,180
mind and shadows of the light enlarging

398
00:20:10,180 --> 00:20:07,330
on this argument of Lucas and so

399
00:20:13,810 --> 00:20:10,190
actually so here's my little story which

400
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:13,820
is when I was a graduate student at

401
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:19,130
Princeton my then-husband was at the

402
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:21,200
Institute for Advanced Study and goodell

403
00:20:27,970 --> 00:20:24,410
was there oh wow

404
00:20:31,060 --> 00:20:27,980
yes yeah your ex-husband was a physicist

405
00:20:37,930 --> 00:20:31,070
am I correct yes Sheldon Goldstein in a

406
00:20:38,210 --> 00:20:37,940
most excellent physicist and so don't

407
00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:38,220
care

408
00:20:45,049 --> 00:20:43,200
was a famous recluse um he never he his

409
00:20:49,180 --> 00:20:45,059
best friend was Einstein I mean that

410
00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:49,190
predated like time I didn't die cited

411
00:20:57,919 --> 00:20:52,350
1954 anyway he would they would only

412
00:20:59,810 --> 00:20:57,929
talk to each other apparently and once

413
00:21:03,200 --> 00:20:59,820
Iceland died he really became very

414
00:21:07,070 --> 00:21:03,210
reclusive and then I went to this party

415
00:21:09,619 --> 00:21:07,080
for newcomers at the Institute for

416
00:21:12,139 --> 00:21:09,629
Advanced Study my husband was a newcomer

417
00:21:13,369 --> 00:21:12,149
when I walked in a bunch of logicians

418
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:13,379
came running over to me

419
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:16,080
it said he's here he's here devil is

420
00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:21,210
here and so sure enough it was I learned

421
00:21:27,019 --> 00:21:24,240
later there was this brief opening when

422
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:27,029
he was a little bit more garius and that

423
00:21:30,919 --> 00:21:28,799
party just happened to coincide with it

424
00:21:36,159 --> 00:21:30,929
and he was there kind of holding court

425
00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:36,169
and I had of course read this argument

426
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:41,039
and I was wanting to ask him what he

427
00:21:49,820 --> 00:21:44,370
thought of it um but I was too shy which

428
00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:49,830
argument the gianluca's argument that

429
00:21:54,620 --> 00:21:53,280
the mind can't be a digital computer

430
00:21:57,740 --> 00:21:54,630
and I just kept putting it off and

431
00:21:59,870 --> 00:21:57,750
putting it off and then he was gone and

432
00:22:02,360 --> 00:21:59,880
I always tell my students this if you

433
00:22:05,180 --> 00:22:02,370
have a question ask you can spend the

434
00:22:08,270 --> 00:22:05,190
rest of your life regretting I did it I

435
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:08,280
have always regretted that I didn't ask

436
00:22:11,390 --> 00:22:09,690
him that question

437
00:22:14,410 --> 00:22:11,400
you know what do you think of this

438
00:22:17,780 --> 00:22:14,420
argument said he could have views on it

439
00:22:21,650 --> 00:22:17,790
okay so that would be that's a big

440
00:22:22,430 --> 00:22:21,660
important consequence if it is a

441
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:22,440
consequence

442
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:24,000
right right right because people like

443
00:22:27,620 --> 00:22:25,440
Daniel Dennett would say that the mind

444
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:27,630
is mechanistic well I don't know if I'm

445
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:30,690
if I'm straw Manning him but it's

446
00:22:35,390 --> 00:22:32,310
something akin to a completely some

447
00:22:39,260 --> 00:22:35,400
people say yeah it is it is a thing to

448
00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:39,270
say we'd like to say it and it's

449
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:41,840
certainly true your thoughts on that

450
00:22:46,910 --> 00:22:45,330
yeah I am I'm not a I'm not a

451
00:22:51,740 --> 00:22:46,920
reductionist when it comes to the mind

452
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:51,750
oh I didn't know that yeah is Pinker a

453
00:23:00,560 --> 00:22:54,770
reductionist when it comes to the mind

454
00:23:05,030 --> 00:23:00,570
we are perhaps he takes reductionism a

455
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:05,040
little more seriously than I do yeah one

456
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:07,170
of my questions that I had - no no I

457
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:08,730
just really want to ask this one what

458
00:23:14,270 --> 00:23:09,930
are the ways in which you defer from

459
00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:14,280
Pinker ideologically hmm well maybe we

460
00:23:24,410 --> 00:23:21,600
can I would say hmm depends what's what

461
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:24,420
what sphere I think you know if it's

462
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:27,710
political I probably am a little mortal

463
00:23:43,130 --> 00:23:34,080
well I am mortal last but um we are

464
00:23:47,660 --> 00:23:43,140
exactly no I would I think that I think

465
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:47,670
that we're both very very committed as

466
00:23:55,550 --> 00:23:52,290
you note your rationality and I would

467
00:24:01,970 --> 00:23:55,560
say in the important ways we're we're

468
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:01,980
quite similar okay so does this mean

469
00:24:05,450 --> 00:24:02,850
when you say that you're not a

470
00:24:07,010 --> 00:24:05,460
reductionist which by the way that's one

471
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:07,020
of the major ways that

472
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:08,250
and completeness theorem has

473
00:24:12,830 --> 00:24:10,370
implications because if you think of

474
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:12,840
society as being composed of brains then

475
00:24:17,630 --> 00:24:15,690
that's composed of biology which is

476
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:17,640
chemistry which is physics which is

477
00:24:27,850 --> 00:24:23,450
predicated on mathematics and if sorry

478
00:24:31,130 --> 00:24:27,860
uses mathematics right right right right

479
00:24:32,930 --> 00:24:31,140
not itself well that that's like that's

480
00:24:36,020 --> 00:24:32,940
our that's right in the string and if

481
00:24:38,750 --> 00:24:36,030
and if mathematics is on on solid ground

482
00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:38,760
in some way shape or form then that has

483
00:24:42,170 --> 00:24:40,710
implications for all for definitely all

484
00:24:45,710 --> 00:24:42,180
the physics and then all of what's above

485
00:24:47,090 --> 00:24:45,720
well even that is contested

486
00:24:49,070 --> 00:24:47,100
so for example I was interviewing

487
00:24:50,510 --> 00:24:49,080
someone named Sabine Hassan Felder who

488
00:24:52,210 --> 00:24:50,520
thinks girdle's incompleteness theorem

489
00:24:55,460 --> 00:24:52,220
has nothing to say about physics

490
00:24:57,500 --> 00:24:55,470
although she said who said that

491
00:25:00,770 --> 00:24:57,510
it's Sabine Hassan Felder well I

492
00:25:02,150 --> 00:25:00,780
actually agree with her okay okay

493
00:25:03,530 --> 00:25:02,160
well she said one of the reasons is that

494
00:25:05,870 --> 00:25:03,540
let's say that you came up with

495
00:25:07,670 --> 00:25:05,880
something that cannot be proven whether

496
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:07,680
or not it's they cannot be proven to be

497
00:25:11,030 --> 00:25:09,450
true you can all in physics you can just

498
00:25:12,530 --> 00:25:11,040
test it and then if it is true because

499
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:12,540
it's experimental then if it is true you

500
00:25:18,530 --> 00:25:15,770
just put that as an axiom well my

501
00:25:20,270 --> 00:25:18,540
response to that would be that would go

502
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:20,280
against the parsimony of science because

503
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:23,010
if you have many of them then you can

504
00:25:27,410 --> 00:25:25,050
just have a thousand axioms plus your

505
00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:27,420
physical theory or ten thousand axioms

506
00:25:32,990 --> 00:25:30,150
or 1 million it's um in principle

507
00:25:40,140 --> 00:25:33,000
argument but regardless regardless yeah

508
00:25:49,050 --> 00:25:43,800
open on this first question of whether

509
00:25:51,420 --> 00:25:49,060
mind conclusions about mine follow from

510
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:51,430
gödel's incompleteness theorems when it

511
00:25:59,990 --> 00:25:56,170
comes to matter I actually don't think

512
00:26:03,330 --> 00:26:00,000
any of these meta mathematical

513
00:26:05,570 --> 00:26:03,340
conclusions and that's what godõs

514
00:26:09,690 --> 00:26:05,580
incompleteness theorem has to do with

515
00:26:13,050 --> 00:26:09,700
has any implications for a final theory

516
00:26:20,030 --> 00:26:13,060
for a theory of everything right so does

517
00:26:32,180 --> 00:26:25,800
it does mind come from matter oh yeah

518
00:26:34,650 --> 00:26:32,190
this stuff is doing doing it all yes

519
00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:34,660
where's the discrepancy why is it that

520
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:36,190
girdle's incompleteness theorem doesn't

521
00:26:40,170 --> 00:26:37,690
apply to matter but what matter

522
00:26:48,650 --> 00:26:40,180
engenders it applies to

523
00:26:52,290 --> 00:26:48,660
well what we want to know about mind is

524
00:26:55,260 --> 00:26:52,300
is it is it a computer is everything

525
00:26:58,350 --> 00:26:55,270
that the mind is able to do and

526
00:27:01,590 --> 00:26:58,360
radicular in doing mathematics but all

527
00:27:06,180 --> 00:27:01,600
the other things that our minds do is it

528
00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:06,190
is this something that a computer could

529
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:10,720
do and there's reason to think because

530
00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:14,080
of what the computers are you know

531
00:27:18,030 --> 00:27:16,000
everything that happens in a commuter is

532
00:27:23,220 --> 00:27:18,040
computable right it's all working

533
00:27:26,490 --> 00:27:23,230
according to this to these algorithmic

534
00:27:31,620 --> 00:27:26,500
rules that maybe that the powers of the

535
00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:31,630
mind exceed that and that even the

536
00:27:38,820 --> 00:27:35,830
notion of truth itself mathematical

537
00:27:42,450 --> 00:27:38,830
truth itself that starsky's undefinable

538
00:27:47,220 --> 00:27:42,460
'ti theorem the notion of truth itself

539
00:27:51,420 --> 00:27:47,230
can't be formalized in assists in a

540
00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:51,430
formal system it exceeds what we can get

541
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:52,960
out of a formal system you know one

542
00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:55,360
truth is and mesh with the notion of

543
00:27:59,520 --> 00:27:58,240
meaning and you know and this meaning

544
00:28:04,140 --> 00:27:59,530
that was the whole point of

545
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:04,150
computability let's get out our

546
00:28:09,570 --> 00:28:06,850
intuitions about truth and about meaning

547
00:28:13,050 --> 00:28:09,580
they're not entirely reliable and they

548
00:28:15,150 --> 00:28:13,060
are not entirely reliable but we can't

549
00:28:18,630 --> 00:28:15,160
get along without them you know we can't

550
00:28:21,290 --> 00:28:18,640
even do mathematics but you know if we

551
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:21,300
confine ourselves to doing what

552
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:23,890
computers can do they're very very

553
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:25,450
useful for solving many mathematical

554
00:28:30,210 --> 00:28:28,690
problems but if we confined ourselves so

555
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:30,220
that we wouldn't have be able to do

556
00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:31,690
everything that we would you do need

557
00:28:36,990 --> 00:28:33,910
billionaires so it really does relate

558
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:37,000
these this because of you know the whole

559
00:28:40,620 --> 00:28:38,710
notion of what a formal system is what a

560
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:40,630
program is a little recursion and

561
00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:43,210
computable you know algorithms all of

562
00:28:51,490 --> 00:28:47,950
these tied up notions and how truth and

563
00:28:53,919 --> 00:28:51,500
meaning are outside of that circle

564
00:28:56,110 --> 00:28:53,929
that's what girdle showed us I mean

565
00:28:58,600 --> 00:28:56,120
that's big stuff that's really big stuff

566
00:29:00,549 --> 00:28:58,610
and turski really cashed out on it with

567
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:00,559
his underlying ability figure out right

568
00:29:04,930 --> 00:29:03,530
as a historical footnote did girdle come

569
00:29:07,299 --> 00:29:04,940
up with tar skis undefined ability

570
00:29:10,659 --> 00:29:07,309
theorem before him how did you know

571
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:10,669
yes he did he probably came up with it

572
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:13,850
he didn't bother to prove it um but yes

573
00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:18,080
he came up I think oh I I haven't

574
00:29:24,490 --> 00:29:21,460
checked dates but I think tarski

575
00:29:28,659 --> 00:29:24,500
published it in 1936 the underlying

576
00:29:34,690 --> 00:29:28,669
ability theorem um and you know a good

577
00:29:38,260 --> 00:29:34,700
old public his theorem said 31 um and I

578
00:29:42,490 --> 00:29:38,270
think he saw thee yes I think it was

579
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:42,500
around 31 that he also had seen right

580
00:29:45,940 --> 00:29:44,240
okay so let's get to our skis undefined

581
00:29:48,850 --> 00:29:45,950
ability through hey

582
00:29:50,649 --> 00:29:48,860
okay so believe me we didn't completely

583
00:29:52,029 --> 00:29:50,659
finish up with the other day so I mean

584
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:52,039
here's what I'd say about like a theory

585
00:29:56,940 --> 00:29:54,130
of everything you know which some

586
00:30:00,240 --> 00:29:56,950
extremely smart people have claimed um

587
00:30:06,620 --> 00:30:03,149
has been ruled out by gödel's

588
00:30:09,539 --> 00:30:06,630
incompleteness theorems Freeman Dyson

589
00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:09,549
Stephen Hawking had changed his mind

590
00:30:15,450 --> 00:30:11,440
about this verse he thought it did and

591
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:15,460
then he thought I did so then it is that

592
00:30:21,419 --> 00:30:17,770
girdle's incompleteness theorems ruled

593
00:30:25,890 --> 00:30:21,429
out a theory of everything so let's say

594
00:30:28,649 --> 00:30:25,900
you have a formal system of physics

595
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:28,659
right and so besides you know some sides

596
00:30:37,710 --> 00:30:32,799
all the arithmetic that is formalized in

597
00:30:39,750 --> 00:30:37,720
there you also have you know things

598
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:39,760
referring to you know velocity and mass

599
00:30:43,890 --> 00:30:42,130
and position and its base time all of

600
00:30:49,289 --> 00:30:43,900
this other stuff which you know go

601
00:30:50,940 --> 00:30:49,299
beyond mathematical concepts I think the

602
00:30:53,070 --> 00:30:50,950
only thing that really follows from

603
00:30:55,710 --> 00:30:53,080
girls incompleteness is that there will

604
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:55,720
be arithmetic improvisation z' within

605
00:31:02,070 --> 00:30:57,730
that formal system that you will not be

606
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:02,080
able to prove that's what follows that's

607
00:31:10,169 --> 00:31:06,490
what good will showed but this is

608
00:31:13,260 --> 00:31:10,179
nothing about the completeness or lack

609
00:31:15,690 --> 00:31:13,270
of completeness of the physics in this

610
00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:15,700
formal system so I I don't think that

611
00:31:21,390 --> 00:31:18,809
this meta mathematics actually has this

612
00:31:22,590 --> 00:31:21,400
implication so that's anyway that's my

613
00:31:24,930 --> 00:31:22,600
right

614
00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:24,940
just so we're clear for the audience

615
00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:26,710
what does Freeman Dyson position on it

616
00:31:29,940 --> 00:31:28,270
and Stephen Hawking's and then why do

617
00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:29,950
you disagree where's the disappointment

618
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:34,809
between us he says he's written

619
00:31:42,210 --> 00:31:39,130
extensively on this I think when okay I

620
00:31:49,770 --> 00:31:42,220
think when he was reviewing Brian

621
00:31:53,250 --> 00:31:49,780
Greene's book he the Freeman Dyson yes

622
00:31:55,380 --> 00:31:53,260
really awesome he said look girdles and

623
00:31:58,490 --> 00:31:55,390
completeness theorem shows that there

624
00:32:01,110 --> 00:31:58,500
are an exhaustible number of true

625
00:32:04,260 --> 00:32:01,120
propositions in mathematics that can't

626
00:32:09,060 --> 00:32:04,270
be true and because of that we can't

627
00:32:10,030 --> 00:32:09,070
show is true I'm sorry and because of

628
00:32:14,530 --> 00:32:10,040
this

629
00:32:16,810 --> 00:32:14,540
since physics uses mathematics it

630
00:32:21,220 --> 00:32:16,820
follows that there are an inexhaustible

631
00:32:26,470 --> 00:32:21,230
number of physical propositions which

632
00:32:29,050 --> 00:32:26,480
can't be proved true and I say you think

633
00:32:32,220 --> 00:32:29,060
that that's a mean I say that's a leap I

634
00:32:38,290 --> 00:32:36,010
yeah okay let's get to tarski we could

635
00:32:41,250 --> 00:32:38,300
spend the entire hour talking about this

636
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:41,260
stuff it's extremely rich and extremely

637
00:32:46,390 --> 00:32:44,720
complicated and I think for me always

638
00:32:49,870 --> 00:32:46,400
it's let's first look at the

639
00:32:54,220 --> 00:32:49,880
incompleteness theorem see what they're

640
00:32:55,870 --> 00:32:54,230
proving how they prove it the limit you

641
00:32:58,020 --> 00:32:55,880
know the fact that they prove me

642
00:33:01,210 --> 00:32:58,030
something about formal systems of

643
00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:01,220
arithmetic we can't prove you know and

644
00:33:07,950 --> 00:33:03,950
so in this theory of everything we will

645
00:33:10,450 --> 00:33:07,960
not be able to prove complicated views

646
00:33:12,790 --> 00:33:10,460
publicly the truth about the integers

647
00:33:14,140 --> 00:33:12,800
but we don't need to do that anyway in

648
00:33:16,210 --> 00:33:14,150
doing physics that's not the kind of

649
00:33:17,950 --> 00:33:16,220
math we use it right although there's a

650
00:33:19,630 --> 00:33:17,960
generalization of girdles theorem which

651
00:33:21,580 --> 00:33:19,640
implies girdles theorem and is easier to

652
00:33:23,050 --> 00:33:21,590
prove and I think was by Turing or

653
00:33:27,010 --> 00:33:23,060
Turing and girdle awesome about

654
00:33:30,460 --> 00:33:27,020
mechanistic know just just about any

655
00:33:36,390 --> 00:33:30,470
mechanized system now someone named

656
00:33:43,690 --> 00:33:39,880
he says at the base of our reality is

657
00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:43,700
computation and I'm curious if that's

658
00:33:47,140 --> 00:33:45,710
the case what do you defines computation

659
00:33:50,110 --> 00:33:47,150
as and what girdles incompleteness

660
00:33:53,580 --> 00:33:50,120
theorem has to say about that yes that's

661
00:33:57,580 --> 00:33:53,590
for me to asking ok so let's get started

662
00:34:00,400 --> 00:33:57,590
notice what is this theorem oh it is

663
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:00,410
really what I just said that the notion

664
00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:04,010
of an arithmetic 'el truth again it's

665
00:34:09,310 --> 00:34:07,190
about arithmetic someone from girdles

666
00:34:13,810 --> 00:34:09,320
and completely the notion of arithmetic

667
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:13,820
truth can't be defined arithmetic li

668
00:34:19,770 --> 00:34:16,610
that's basically what it says right um

669
00:34:21,820 --> 00:34:19,780
so again this is quite a limit to the

670
00:34:28,690 --> 00:34:21,830
notion of truth

671
00:34:32,870 --> 00:34:28,700
meaning and all of this can't be defined

672
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:32,880
syntactically that is by these rules of

673
00:34:36,350 --> 00:34:34,800
how your what are the symbols and how

674
00:34:38,450 --> 00:34:36,360
you can put the symbols together and

675
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:38,460
which sim which strings that symbols can

676
00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:39,770
fall from other strings of symbols

677
00:34:45,740 --> 00:34:42,060
that's what a formal system tells you

678
00:34:49,220 --> 00:34:45,750
right right you can't get the semantic

679
00:34:51,830 --> 00:34:49,230
notion of Erath manacle truth out of

680
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:51,840
notes does that have in your estimation

681
00:34:57,290 --> 00:34:54,240
any implications on truth in the way

682
00:34:58,640 --> 00:34:57,300
that people will colloquial use it use

683
00:35:00,710 --> 00:34:58,650
the word truth like I believe that this

684
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:00,720
is true or this is scientifically true

685
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:06,480
or objectively true but tarski also

686
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:11,110
I wrote about semantic truth

687
00:35:16,140 --> 00:35:13,330
that is the thing that we can't get out

688
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:16,150
of syntactic truth right it's larger

689
00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:21,090
than syntactic truth he also has he has

690
00:35:25,530 --> 00:35:23,590
and this is now we're talking about

691
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:25,540
philosophy of language we're not talking

692
00:35:29,390 --> 00:35:27,130
about philosophy of mathematics anymore

693
00:35:35,820 --> 00:35:29,400
we're talking about meaning and truth

694
00:35:38,010 --> 00:35:35,830
and so he has this a classic paper on

695
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:38,020
the semantic notion of truth and when he

696
00:35:45,550 --> 00:35:43,650
basically is proof arguing there is that

697
00:36:00,010 --> 00:35:45,560
you

698
00:36:08,690 --> 00:36:06,110
to the very whole oh it just froze after

699
00:36:11,870 --> 00:36:08,700
you said tarski had a wonderful paper

700
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:11,880
about the semantic notion of truth truth

701
00:36:19,220 --> 00:36:15,570
in which he in some sense it claims that

702
00:36:23,110 --> 00:36:19,230
truth the semantic notion can't really

703
00:36:29,380 --> 00:36:23,120
be defined either you can have a big

704
00:36:32,930 --> 00:36:29,390
interesting theory of truth the truth is

705
00:36:36,290 --> 00:36:32,940
it's baked in to the very conditions of

706
00:36:39,230 --> 00:36:36,300
assertion that when I assert anything

707
00:36:43,850 --> 00:36:39,240
I'm asserting it's true his example is

708
00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:43,860
the proposition snow is white is true if

709
00:36:50,990 --> 00:36:48,320
and only if snow is white it sounds so

710
00:36:51,850 --> 00:36:51,000
prosaic and in some sense that's what

711
00:36:55,850 --> 00:36:51,860
he's saying

712
00:36:57,500 --> 00:36:55,860
truth is kind of it's prosaic and and

713
00:37:00,650 --> 00:36:57,510
that's why even if you know if you want

714
00:37:02,420 --> 00:37:00,660
to come up with some fancy notion of

715
00:37:06,290 --> 00:37:02,430
truth

716
00:37:08,090 --> 00:37:06,300
I mean even to understand your fancy for

717
00:37:10,010 --> 00:37:08,100
us and shade or a fancy notion of truth

718
00:37:13,370 --> 00:37:10,020
we're just gonna fall back on the old

719
00:37:16,910 --> 00:37:13,380
prosaic notion of truth you know which

720
00:37:19,550 --> 00:37:16,920
is just baked into the very conditions

721
00:37:21,980 --> 00:37:19,560
of being able to speak at all and which

722
00:37:23,650 --> 00:37:21,990
is in the very conditions of language

723
00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:23,660
it's why we trust each other

724
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:26,910
when people say things we know that to

725
00:37:36,380 --> 00:37:30,210
say to put forth on a proposition is to

726
00:37:38,690 --> 00:37:36,390
say it's true I don't have to say the

727
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:38,700
proposition I'm gonna stick with the

728
00:37:45,590 --> 00:37:41,280
Trump right the proposition that Trump

729
00:37:48,710 --> 00:37:45,600
is you know it was elected huh let's

730
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:48,720
make it the proposition that Trump lost

731
00:37:56,450 --> 00:37:54,210
the popular vote in 2016 is true all I

732
00:37:59,390 --> 00:37:56,460
have to say is I don't have to say that

733
00:38:02,840 --> 00:37:59,400
I'll have to say it Trump lost the

734
00:38:06,590 --> 00:38:02,850
popular vote in 2016 I am already saying

735
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:06,600
it's true let that's more or less what

736
00:38:11,780 --> 00:38:09,930
what and then if you know when it's tied

737
00:38:15,140 --> 00:38:11,790
up with meaning and it's tied up with

738
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:15,150
very conditions of language and you just

739
00:38:20,230 --> 00:38:17,610
can have any more injury it's a

740
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:20,240
deflationary view of semantics truth

741
00:38:25,010 --> 00:38:22,890
this is very interesting because people

742
00:38:28,010 --> 00:38:25,020
have put forth all sorts of theories

743
00:38:29,150 --> 00:38:28,020
just a second just singing as far as I

744
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:29,160
know there's a couple theories which

745
00:38:32,450 --> 00:38:31,050
correspond is pragmatic and deflationary

746
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:32,460
I never understood so do you mind

747
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,250
explaining what this deflationary means

748
00:38:38,690 --> 00:38:36,720
the inflationary theory of truth there

749
00:38:42,890 --> 00:38:38,700
is no truth it deflates all theories of

750
00:38:45,230 --> 00:38:42,900
truth what it deflates all theories of

751
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:45,240
truth just because truth is too basic

752
00:38:50,570 --> 00:38:47,970
you can't have a theory of it it's just

753
00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:50,580
baked into what we do the most

754
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:52,110
fundamental thing that we do with

755
00:38:58,100 --> 00:38:54,410
language which is to make assertions

756
00:38:59,780 --> 00:38:58,110
right to make an assertion is to say

757
00:39:02,450 --> 00:38:59,790
that that thing that you're asserting is

758
00:39:08,110 --> 00:39:02,460
true and that's the most basic thing

759
00:39:10,220 --> 00:39:08,120
that we can say about truths okay yeah

760
00:39:12,290 --> 00:39:10,230
corresponds to reality you don't have to

761
00:39:13,580 --> 00:39:12,300
talk about its coherent with other

762
00:39:14,420 --> 00:39:13,590
things you don't do that certainly

763
00:39:17,180 --> 00:39:14,430
relativized

764
00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:17,190
I'm sorry I don't bogged down in truth

765
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:19,680
like center a Peters but it sounds like

766
00:39:25,310 --> 00:39:22,770
if you only study correspondence

767
00:39:27,890 --> 00:39:25,320
coherence a minor amount pragmatism

768
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:27,900
minor amounts and deflationary I know

769
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:29,730
almost nothing about but it sounded like

770
00:39:33,830 --> 00:39:31,530
when you were explaining to flip a view

771
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:33,840
which is snow is white and it's true if

772
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:35,760
snow is white or that particular snow is

773
00:39:38,930 --> 00:39:37,920
white that sounds like a correspondence

774
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:38,940
because you have a phrase and then you

775
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:41,250
correspond to the external world is that

776
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:44,090
not well I mean it's kind of like

777
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:46,290
correspondence but you don't have to

778
00:39:50,060 --> 00:39:48,450
we don't know I'm so pleased that I

779
00:39:53,420 --> 00:39:50,070
forgive my ignorance

780
00:39:55,100 --> 00:39:53,430
yeah if you don't have to reify states

781
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:55,110
of affairs you know that a proposition

782
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:57,330
is true and only if there's a state of

783
00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:00,960
affair that corresponds to it it's just

784
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:05,040
it's really just pointing to an I mean

785
00:40:11,300 --> 00:40:08,610
way what is it that we do in the most

786
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:11,310
fundamental language game that we play

787
00:40:16,070 --> 00:40:14,610
with which is to make assertions so that

788
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:16,080
we can share information with one

789
00:40:20,090 --> 00:40:17,850
another I mean this is the very roots

790
00:40:22,850 --> 00:40:20,100
the genealogy of language why did

791
00:40:24,890 --> 00:40:22,860
language develop among the species of

792
00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:24,900
apes you know it's because some people

793
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:27,420
a better position of knowing certain

794
00:40:33,890 --> 00:40:30,210
facts and others and we develop language

795
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:33,900
so we can pool our we don't pool our

796
00:40:39,890 --> 00:40:36,930
knowledge basically and we so it's it's

797
00:40:42,170 --> 00:40:39,900
sort of just comes right out of the very

798
00:40:47,690 --> 00:40:42,180
conditions in which the genealogical

799
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:47,700
conditions in which language evolved and

800
00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:52,770
it is the to a proposition is true to

801
00:40:57,890 --> 00:40:54,510
assert that this preposition is true is

802
00:41:00,200 --> 00:40:57,900
to assert the proposition itself right

803
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:00,210
right most interesting thing you can say

804
00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:00,810
about truth

805
00:41:06,020 --> 00:41:03,240
no no post modernists would disagree

806
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:06,030
with that so I'm curious what do you

807
00:41:10,730 --> 00:41:08,160
feel like is correct generally about

808
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:10,740
their sentiments and and where do you

809
00:41:18,380 --> 00:41:14,730
disagree and why so I guess is one of

810
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:18,390
those terms that links together an awful

811
00:41:27,610 --> 00:41:20,370
lot right and so there is post-modernism

812
00:41:31,490 --> 00:41:29,930
you like it because it's interesting or

813
00:41:34,190 --> 00:41:31,500
you like it because we believe what it's

814
00:41:37,010 --> 00:41:34,200
saying is no I don't think so here's I

815
00:41:39,350 --> 00:41:37,020
think maybe in general what we mean by

816
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:39,360
this term post-modernism wherever we

817
00:41:46,370 --> 00:41:45,210
apply it in intellectual domains where I

818
00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:46,380
think it's worthless

819
00:41:52,070 --> 00:41:50,400
or in artistic domains where I think no

820
00:41:54,620 --> 00:41:52,080
you can get some interesting art out of

821
00:41:58,910 --> 00:41:54,630
it right I think in general what

822
00:42:00,980 --> 00:41:58,920
post-modernism is about is um you know

823
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:00,990
there are certain conventions that

824
00:42:08,510 --> 00:42:05,210
govern these various domains and

825
00:42:10,970 --> 00:42:08,520
post-modernism and generally they're

826
00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:10,980
invisible you know you do the domain and

827
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:14,310
you don't think about conventions that

828
00:42:20,450 --> 00:42:18,330
you're implying in doing this thing so

829
00:42:21,620 --> 00:42:20,460
for example you know when I'm novelist

830
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:21,630
tells a story

831
00:42:25,790 --> 00:42:23,730
you know she's making it up and there

832
00:42:27,650 --> 00:42:25,800
are all sorts of conventions that pull

833
00:42:31,250 --> 00:42:27,660
in the readers and make the readers

834
00:42:32,750 --> 00:42:31,260
think to live this reality and the way

835
00:42:37,010 --> 00:42:32,760
that you have to live it in order for

836
00:42:38,599 --> 00:42:37,020
the novel to work well what if you know

837
00:42:41,059 --> 00:42:38,609
the the novelist

838
00:42:44,059 --> 00:42:41,069
calls attention to the fact that this is

839
00:42:46,670 --> 00:42:44,069
that she is making this all up by

840
00:42:49,299 --> 00:42:46,680
putting herself into the story and so

841
00:42:53,359 --> 00:42:49,309
calling can you know calling attention

842
00:42:59,599 --> 00:42:53,369
conventions and that can be cool I can

843
00:43:02,049 --> 00:42:59,609
you know what your friend is self

844
00:43:04,370 --> 00:43:02,059
reflexivity yes that's not all that

845
00:43:06,049 --> 00:43:04,380
modernism is the philosophical

846
00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:06,059
post-modernism is summed up with

847
00:43:13,069 --> 00:43:10,160
skepticism the grand narratives so in

848
00:43:17,690 --> 00:43:13,079
doing intellectual work there are

849
00:43:19,999 --> 00:43:17,700
certain you know conventions of of truth

850
00:43:22,339 --> 00:43:20,009
right I think

851
00:43:25,309 --> 00:43:22,349
torski that's part of what tarski is

852
00:43:30,460 --> 00:43:25,319
talking about there and what if we you

853
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:30,470
know call attention to those conventions

854
00:43:35,390 --> 00:43:33,200
themselves showing up there

855
00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:35,400
conventionality and therefore a giving

856
00:43:39,140 --> 00:43:37,200
reason to doubt I mean the same thing is

857
00:43:42,829 --> 00:43:39,150
true wherever we call attention to the

858
00:43:43,940 --> 00:43:42,839
conventions one does it to you know call

859
00:43:47,150 --> 00:43:43,950
attention to the fact that these are

860
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:47,160
conventional and we and therefore open

861
00:43:50,299 --> 00:43:48,720
to gap you know what would it be like to

862
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:50,309
doubt them what would be like to produce

863
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:53,130
art that the you know doesn't play by

864
00:43:56,900 --> 00:43:54,450
those conventions well what would it be

865
00:43:59,229 --> 00:43:56,910
like to produce intellectual work that

866
00:44:01,700 --> 00:43:59,239
doesn't play by the conventions of

867
00:44:05,930 --> 00:44:01,710
say truth and meaning and all of these

868
00:44:06,979 --> 00:44:05,940
things and they're I think because of

869
00:44:10,579 --> 00:44:06,989
what torski

870
00:44:14,599 --> 00:44:10,589
is saying about truth you end up with

871
00:44:16,700 --> 00:44:14,609
analysis you know you get to assert is

872
00:44:21,289 --> 00:44:16,710
to assert that what you're saying is

873
00:44:24,999 --> 00:44:21,299
true to put forth a theory that call

874
00:44:27,529 --> 00:44:25,009
calls into doubt the conventions of

875
00:44:30,890 --> 00:44:27,539
truth that are baked into the

876
00:44:33,229 --> 00:44:30,900
conventions of assertion if it's

877
00:44:36,349 --> 00:44:33,239
nonsense I'm gonna have to believe what

878
00:44:40,510 --> 00:44:36,359
you're saying about truth using the old

879
00:44:50,590 --> 00:44:44,690
of truth there's there's and and so you

880
00:44:54,410 --> 00:44:50,600
you you end up with paradox right okay

881
00:44:57,140 --> 00:44:54,420
this is something like I have a movie

882
00:44:58,820 --> 00:44:57,150
called better left unsaid which is about

883
00:45:00,050 --> 00:44:58,830
when does the left go too far and I'm

884
00:45:03,710 --> 00:45:00,060
not saying that because I'm right wing

885
00:45:06,170 --> 00:45:03,720
or Orson or Center or alter right it's

886
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:06,180
it's just because people like Pinker who

887
00:45:10,130 --> 00:45:08,730
considers himself to be on the left also

888
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:10,140
see that there's an extreme left and

889
00:45:14,270 --> 00:45:11,250
they want to delineate themselves so

890
00:45:16,310 --> 00:45:14,280
it's pretty much about delineation in it

891
00:45:18,020 --> 00:45:16,320
I found that habermas who's a social

892
00:45:19,250 --> 00:45:18,030
constructionist which is extremely

893
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:19,260
interesting I thought he would disagree

894
00:45:22,940 --> 00:45:21,450
with the postmodernist he critiqued the

895
00:45:25,190 --> 00:45:22,950
post modernist by saying you can't have

896
00:45:27,349 --> 00:45:25,200
these true statements I mean these two

897
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:27,359
statements which is well you have two

898
00:45:34,460 --> 00:45:29,910
different truths truth sub one is the

899
00:45:40,250 --> 00:45:37,670
I forgot it but whatever it's the truth

900
00:45:41,329 --> 00:45:40,260
exists and then truths up to is truth is

901
00:45:43,339 --> 00:45:41,339
whatever I say - yeah that's right

902
00:45:46,010 --> 00:45:43,349
that's the social constructionist theory

903
00:45:49,099 --> 00:45:46,020
of truth but truth saw - depends on

904
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:49,109
truth sub-1 so it's essentially saying

905
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:51,210
there is no truth but that is statement

906
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:53,010
itself is a truthful statement at least

907
00:45:57,620 --> 00:45:55,050
you're asserting it is that what you

908
00:46:01,640 --> 00:45:57,630
were saying more or less yeah yeah

909
00:46:03,980 --> 00:46:01,650
absolutely yeah yeah I mean if you if

910
00:46:06,650 --> 00:46:03,990
these things are just making and this is

911
00:46:08,599 --> 00:46:06,660
again I think this is hashing out the

912
00:46:10,579 --> 00:46:08,609
what if they said this what if they put

913
00:46:21,950 --> 00:46:10,589
an asterisk there is no truth except

914
00:46:28,099 --> 00:46:21,960
this one what reason would you know so

915
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:28,109
and I'm sure so there isn't I mean there

916
00:46:33,650 --> 00:46:31,650
is no truth except this one I mean that

917
00:46:35,809 --> 00:46:33,660
there is no truth except this one I'm

918
00:46:39,170 --> 00:46:35,819
sure you can generate other statements

919
00:46:41,329 --> 00:46:39,180
from that you know that that would also

920
00:46:42,890 --> 00:46:41,339
have to be true there I mean there's

921
00:46:46,690 --> 00:46:42,900
there's no way that you could restrict

922
00:46:49,099 --> 00:46:46,700
that to simply that I see I see I see

923
00:46:54,109 --> 00:46:49,109
now what about the power play that comes

924
00:46:55,220 --> 00:46:54,119
hand-in-hand with rain for dominance

925
00:47:03,250 --> 00:46:55,230
yeah

926
00:47:06,890 --> 00:47:03,260
so without truth look I we are we are

927
00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:06,900
hmm we're not my angels the species of

928
00:47:14,270 --> 00:47:08,730
us we've got better angels

929
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:14,280
we are no angels right and we are we

930
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:18,450
need something to reign us in and I

931
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:22,170
think it's us one of our saving grace is

932
00:47:30,530 --> 00:47:27,450
that we we basically do recognize truth

933
00:47:34,329 --> 00:47:30,540
we recognize almost everybody recognizes

934
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:34,339
that contradictions can't be true I mean

935
00:47:38,809 --> 00:47:36,930
thank goodness this is true because this

936
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:38,819
is part of the way that we've made

937
00:47:42,020 --> 00:47:41,010
progress I think this is one of the

938
00:47:43,910 --> 00:47:42,030
things that we would like to talk about

939
00:47:46,609 --> 00:47:43,920
how we've made progress but you know a

940
00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:46,619
lot of where we were self-serving

941
00:47:51,390 --> 00:47:48,240
creatures where

942
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:51,400
we're serving of our kin of our of our

943
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:53,050
tribe and all of these things all of

944
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:57,490
this is part of what we bring to the

945
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:01,200
game right how do we made any progress

946
00:48:09,950 --> 00:48:05,440
well part of it is that you know when

947
00:48:12,750 --> 00:48:09,960
people show us implications of our

948
00:48:15,599 --> 00:48:12,760
various beliefs and show that they lead

949
00:48:18,059 --> 00:48:15,609
to contradictions which is what harbor

950
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:18,069
Mawson and I would say about serial

951
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:22,450
truth right needs to contradictions most

952
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:28,319
people you know the species of apes

953
00:48:32,940 --> 00:48:30,550
understands my contradictions can be

954
00:48:35,069 --> 00:48:32,950
true and you go back and you look at

955
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:35,079
your premises and you see where the

956
00:48:40,710 --> 00:48:38,170
contradiction is arising and you give up

957
00:48:44,370 --> 00:48:40,720
something and we've a lot of progress

958
00:48:46,170 --> 00:48:44,380
has been made in this way you know or I

959
00:48:48,750 --> 00:48:46,180
mean science itself you know your your

960
00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:48,760
your theory makes a prediction the

961
00:48:55,260 --> 00:48:52,569
prediction is falsified now go back

962
00:48:58,319 --> 00:48:55,270
what's wrong with my theory I mean all

963
00:49:03,510 --> 00:48:58,329
of this scientific progress moral

964
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:03,520
progress all of this has been made

965
00:49:14,819 --> 00:49:08,650
because we recognize fundamentally

966
00:49:18,690 --> 00:49:14,829
something about truth right and without

967
00:49:22,620 --> 00:49:18,700
that Terenas in its raw power

968
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:22,630
it's my group gaining dominance against

969
00:49:31,380 --> 00:49:27,010
your group this is this is the very

970
00:49:34,799 --> 00:49:31,390
opposite of progress right this is a

971
00:49:38,460 --> 00:49:34,809
world of you know so without a shared

972
00:49:41,849 --> 00:49:38,470
notion of truth it's conflict it's

973
00:49:43,829 --> 00:49:41,859
nothing but power and you know and you

974
00:49:46,500 --> 00:49:43,839
know that theory of truth that should

975
00:49:48,780 --> 00:49:46,510
not according to tarski

976
00:49:51,660 --> 00:49:48,790
but I take very seriously should not

977
00:49:54,180 --> 00:49:51,670
exist right into this postmodern theory

978
00:49:56,190 --> 00:49:54,190
of truth they come right out at it and

979
00:49:58,500 --> 00:49:56,200
say yeah without chance it's one POW

980
00:49:58,760 --> 00:49:58,510
it's one dominant group you know against

981
00:50:05,080 --> 00:49:58,770
the

982
00:50:07,310 --> 00:50:05,090
I see

983
00:50:09,590 --> 00:50:07,320
seeing some people that I was talking to

984
00:50:12,740 --> 00:50:09,600
say that what we need in this culture is

985
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:12,750
more dialogue but dialogue is predicated

986
00:50:17,330 --> 00:50:15,930
on a shared notion of truth because if

987
00:50:18,530 --> 00:50:17,340
you don't have that then how do you know

988
00:50:20,030 --> 00:50:18,540
that you're making progress in the

989
00:50:22,730 --> 00:50:20,040
dialogue what's the point of talking to

990
00:50:27,310 --> 00:50:22,740
someone exactly exactly I mean dialogue

991
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:27,320
is so important because some of our most

992
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:33,810
efficacious or operative presumptions

993
00:50:38,750 --> 00:50:36,930
are invisible to us they're so deep down

994
00:50:42,830 --> 00:50:38,760
in us that they're there they're quite

995
00:50:44,300 --> 00:50:42,840
invisible to us and often yes we've

996
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:44,310
gotten them from our group from our

997
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:46,050
culture and all of these things so it's

998
00:50:50,780 --> 00:50:48,480
extremely important to talk to people

999
00:50:53,690 --> 00:50:50,790
who may not share those presumptions

1000
00:50:55,340 --> 00:50:53,700
because they're coming from maybe you

1001
00:50:58,970 --> 00:50:55,350
know different circumstances I can't

1002
00:51:05,390 --> 00:50:58,980
tell you how the dialog has changed

1003
00:51:08,270 --> 00:51:05,400
since I entered philosophy and was

1004
00:51:12,970 --> 00:51:08,280
always the only woman in the room only

1005
00:51:15,970 --> 00:51:12,980
and now how it has changed because

1006
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:15,980
certain presumptions just weren't

1007
00:51:28,090 --> 00:51:23,680
there was something I think it's really

1008
00:51:32,900 --> 00:51:28,100
changed they were certain ethical

1009
00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:32,910
dilemmas that arise within families and

1010
00:51:41,140 --> 00:51:35,510
and you know and who do you owe your

1011
00:51:45,230 --> 00:51:41,150
allegiance to that are in really

1012
00:51:49,310 --> 00:51:45,240
strengthened by women entering into into

1013
00:51:51,140 --> 00:51:49,320
the conversation because women you know

1014
00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:51,150
are often pulled in in very many

1015
00:51:56,410 --> 00:51:53,730
directions and have you know family

1016
00:51:59,870 --> 00:51:56,420
obligations or feel family obligations

1017
00:52:03,070 --> 00:51:59,880
in a way sometimes men don't right for

1018
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:03,080
probably good evolutionary reasons

1019
00:52:10,540 --> 00:52:07,770
that's a politically to say anyway so

1020
00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:10,550
but if it's changed the dialogue

1021
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:13,910
so no speaking about progress are you of

1022
00:52:19,510 --> 00:52:16,130
the mind that we all pretty much want

1023
00:52:21,340 --> 00:52:19,520
the same thing we just disagree on how

1024
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:21,350
to get there and what we need to do is

1025
00:52:27,340 --> 00:52:23,450
use rationality and reason to progress

1026
00:52:29,260 --> 00:52:27,350
forward or just I don't think we all

1027
00:52:35,370 --> 00:52:29,270
want the same things I think there are

1028
00:52:39,130 --> 00:52:35,380
many people who want their their group

1029
00:52:43,180 --> 00:52:39,140
their tribe however they define it to

1030
00:52:47,380 --> 00:52:43,190
win at all costs and they will sacrifice

1031
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:47,390
the truth entirely to to to get what

1032
00:52:56,170 --> 00:52:50,570
they want and no I don't think we all

1033
00:52:58,300 --> 00:52:56,180
want I think without the taming respect

1034
00:53:01,150 --> 00:52:58,310
for the truth yeah that's what it

1035
00:53:04,990 --> 00:53:01,160
descends to but I I think that an awful

1036
00:53:07,510 --> 00:53:05,000
lot of no I don't I really don't uh I

1037
00:53:11,350 --> 00:53:07,520
don't I think that there are still many

1038
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:11,360
many people who see for me ideology

1039
00:53:18,550 --> 00:53:16,610
means I don't you know to me the word

1040
00:53:20,110 --> 00:53:18,560
ideology is something negative I think

1041
00:53:23,170 --> 00:53:20,120
you use it somewhat differently than I

1042
00:53:24,460 --> 00:53:23,180
do but I do not use the term just

1043
00:53:25,930 --> 00:53:24,470
because it's ill-defined

1044
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:25,940
many people many different things about

1045
00:53:28,930 --> 00:53:27,440
I just used it when speaking about you

1046
00:53:32,230 --> 00:53:28,940
and Pinker because I thought you might

1047
00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:32,240
want another yes I mean to me it is a

1048
00:53:37,540 --> 00:53:35,510
negative word it's a kind of sacred

1049
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:37,550
truth thing you know that there are

1050
00:53:43,750 --> 00:53:40,970
certain truths that I'm just not going

1051
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:43,760
to ever give up even if they were

1052
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:46,310
empirically dogmatism looped you know

1053
00:53:51,550 --> 00:53:50,330
even if there's hmm don't isn't is it

1054
00:53:54,580 --> 00:53:51,560
different than dogmatism in your in

1055
00:53:56,710 --> 00:53:54,590
Europe right it's different than

1056
00:53:58,690 --> 00:53:56,720
dogmatism it's almost the same thing is

1057
00:54:01,330 --> 00:53:58,700
it okay almost you know but it's a

1058
00:54:04,620 --> 00:54:01,340
except that it's a like a theory it's a

1059
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:04,630
whole cluster of interlaced groups of

1060
00:54:15,790 --> 00:54:11,570
truths or claims of truths often you

1061
00:54:18,940 --> 00:54:15,800
know politically or yeah politically

1062
00:54:20,710 --> 00:54:18,950
motivated oh I see well why don't we

1063
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:20,720
define for the audience what ration it

1064
00:54:31,220 --> 00:54:23,730
what you see as rationality and then

1065
00:54:33,870 --> 00:54:31,230
okay well what I see if a chanel is one

1066
00:54:37,019 --> 00:54:33,880
tremendous respect for the truth right

1067
00:54:41,150 --> 00:54:37,029
it's a sort of attitude towards the

1068
00:54:43,079 --> 00:54:41,160
truth it is a recognition of our own

1069
00:54:49,289 --> 00:54:43,089
ability I don't think you can be

1070
00:54:57,029 --> 00:54:49,299
rational without recognizing our

1071
00:55:00,749 --> 00:54:57,039
weakness of epistemic modesty right and

1072
00:55:03,210 --> 00:55:00,759
not only recognizing this about one

1073
00:55:07,289 --> 00:55:03,220
species which is very very easy but

1074
00:55:12,059 --> 00:55:07,299
about oneself and so developing critical

1075
00:55:15,059 --> 00:55:12,069
self critical attitudes towards one's

1076
00:55:17,809 --> 00:55:15,069
belief and being willing to do

1077
00:55:20,730 --> 00:55:17,819
everything you can to challenge those

1078
00:55:22,890 --> 00:55:20,740
beliefs which often you know involves

1079
00:55:23,549 --> 00:55:22,900
talking to people who don't believe as

1080
00:55:27,299 --> 00:55:23,559
you do

1081
00:55:32,390 --> 00:55:27,309
I have changed my beliefs radically in

1082
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:32,400
my lifetime often a great personal cost

1083
00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:36,130
right I was born into a extremely

1084
00:55:42,180 --> 00:55:39,910
religious family and I don't know how

1085
00:55:45,599 --> 00:55:42,190
those beliefs anymore

1086
00:55:47,670 --> 00:55:45,609
and that is something I didn't want to

1087
00:55:50,940 --> 00:55:47,680
differ from my family this was not a

1088
00:55:54,539 --> 00:55:50,950
rebellion against my family and I am

1089
00:55:57,539 --> 00:55:54,549
still extremely close to my family but

1090
00:56:00,839 --> 00:55:57,549
it was you know an impossibility to

1091
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:00,849
believe in the way that I had been

1092
00:56:09,799 --> 00:56:05,890
taught to believe and it is you know I

1093
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:09,809
think that that is you know part of

1094
00:56:15,029 --> 00:56:12,130
maybe I'll change my mind someday it's

1095
00:56:16,319 --> 00:56:15,039
always open this is always open and I've

1096
00:56:19,230 --> 00:56:16,329
changed my mind about many many things

1097
00:56:22,769 --> 00:56:19,240
but that was probably you know the

1098
00:56:27,019 --> 00:56:22,779
deepest one the one that cost me the

1099
00:56:31,710 --> 00:56:27,029
most and cost other people the most so

1100
00:56:35,789 --> 00:56:31,720
yeah I mean so this to me this attitude

1101
00:56:36,420 --> 00:56:35,799
towards truth towards our own salability

1102
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:36,430
or

1103
00:56:46,740 --> 00:56:42,130
epistemic modesty this is what I want to

1104
00:56:47,850 --> 00:56:46,750
consider cheeky rationality okay you

1105
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:47,860
just said maybe I'll change my mind

1106
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:49,450
about that and that's a view that you

1107
00:56:52,890 --> 00:56:52,090
hold for or you hope that you hold for

1108
00:57:00,540 --> 00:56:52,900
all your beliefs

1109
00:57:02,100 --> 00:57:00,550
now what about see to me that would lead

1110
00:57:04,050 --> 00:57:02,110
to nihilism and I would like to know why

1111
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:04,060
you think it doesn't or maybe you think

1112
00:57:11,790 --> 00:57:06,610
now nihilism is salutary or at least not

1113
00:57:14,070 --> 00:57:11,800
non solitary but either way what about

1114
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:14,080
saying that what happened in the

1115
00:57:18,060 --> 00:57:16,450
Holocaust was great would you change

1116
00:57:19,590 --> 00:57:18,070
your mind about yeah and if someone said

1117
00:57:22,110 --> 00:57:19,600
that and no well you hold the belief

1118
00:57:23,970 --> 00:57:22,120
that it was for oh and then someone said

1119
00:57:24,990 --> 00:57:23,980
well aren't you willing to change your

1120
00:57:26,970 --> 00:57:25,000
mind about anything

1121
00:57:29,700 --> 00:57:26,980
are you really never mind about that I

1122
00:57:34,410 --> 00:57:29,710
would hear their arguments yes I would

1123
00:57:37,980 --> 00:57:34,420
hear their arguments and I believe I

1124
00:57:42,210 --> 00:57:37,990
could knock them down quite easily but

1125
00:57:47,390 --> 00:57:42,220
yes I would I would engage and I you

1126
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:51,060
okay okay okay how about this how about

1127
00:57:56,270 --> 00:57:53,650
it well you have a self did you see one

1128
00:57:59,400 --> 00:57:56,280
thing yes let's take heart actually

1129
00:58:02,040 --> 00:57:59,410
showed us this is curse medication we

1130
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:02,050
don't have to in being open to

1131
00:58:07,980 --> 00:58:04,770
everything and using you know radical

1132
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:07,990
methods of doubt and all of that we

1133
00:58:11,250 --> 00:58:09,370
don't have to go through every belief

1134
00:58:12,810 --> 00:58:11,260
one by one I mean when they're infinite

1135
00:58:16,230 --> 00:58:12,820
number of beliefs that we have you know

1136
00:58:17,850 --> 00:58:16,240
just looking out at the situation and

1137
00:58:21,630 --> 00:58:17,860
flooded with all sorts of beliefs about

1138
00:58:23,310 --> 00:58:21,640
what things are existing right now in my

1139
00:58:26,610 --> 00:58:23,320
vicinity and what conditions they're in

1140
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:26,620
but there are you know there are beliefs

1141
00:58:32,700 --> 00:58:29,290
that sort of are all joined together so

1142
00:58:34,170 --> 00:58:32,710
for example so I have a view about the

1143
00:58:38,790 --> 00:58:34,180
basis of morality

1144
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:38,800
what makes proposition is true I'm open

1145
00:58:45,750 --> 00:58:42,610
very very open to people arguing with me

1146
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:45,760
about that a consequence of my belief is

1147
00:58:51,829 --> 00:58:47,730
that the Holocaust

1148
00:58:56,630 --> 00:58:51,839
was an abomination and you know so

1149
00:59:01,819 --> 00:58:56,640
somebody would have to so fundamentally

1150
00:59:04,099 --> 00:59:01,829
attack my view as to moral truths as you

1151
00:59:06,620 --> 00:59:04,109
know in such a fundamental way that the

1152
00:59:09,260 --> 00:59:06,630
Holocaust being a good thing Freeman

1153
00:59:11,089 --> 00:59:09,270
looking you know what you know what if

1154
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:11,099
you really don't believe if you think

1155
00:59:21,380 --> 00:59:15,920
there are the matters is dominance you

1156
00:59:24,049 --> 00:59:21,390
know of one group and you know and you

1157
00:59:27,319 --> 00:59:24,059
and you want to make your group as

1158
00:59:29,359 --> 00:59:27,329
strong as possible right and because

1159
00:59:31,370 --> 00:59:29,369
that's all there is really that's all

1160
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:31,380
that's left when you can do away with

1161
00:59:38,599 --> 00:59:34,770
truth well scapegoating is an extremely

1162
00:59:42,140 --> 00:59:38,609
effective method of causing coherence in

1163
00:59:44,359 --> 00:59:42,150
your group you know when that um you

1164
00:59:49,069 --> 00:59:44,369
know when Verdun King Ferdinand and

1165
00:59:53,510 --> 00:59:49,079
Queen Isabella and in the 15th and 16th

1166
00:59:56,420 --> 00:59:53,520
century wanted having conquered Spain

1167
00:59:59,329 --> 00:59:56,430
from the Ottoman Empire wanted to unify

1168
01:00:02,870 --> 00:59:59,339
it what did they do picked on the Jews

1169
01:00:06,950 --> 01:00:02,880
right expelled the Jews this was a very

1170
01:00:10,190 --> 01:00:06,960
effective means of unifying and giving a

1171
01:00:14,299 --> 01:00:10,200
national identity because I'm glitters

1172
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:14,309
identity to their country so you know if

1173
01:00:22,849 --> 01:00:19,250
I would say it's this view of you know

1174
01:00:26,809 --> 01:00:22,859
all there is is power and dominance and

1175
01:00:29,990 --> 01:00:26,819
dog-eat-dog that's gonna wait to you

1176
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:30,000
know you could actually try to argue

1177
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:31,650
that the Holocaust was a good thing

1178
01:00:39,010 --> 01:00:34,130
writing unifying the German nation okay

1179
01:00:43,819 --> 01:00:39,020
just the way expelling the Jews you know

1180
01:00:47,059 --> 01:00:43,829
unified Spain so I don't think you know

1181
01:00:49,940 --> 01:00:47,069
I think their race I think I think hold

1182
01:00:53,059 --> 01:00:49,950
taking truth so seriously that you're

1183
01:00:55,660 --> 01:00:53,069
always willing to look at arguments that

1184
01:00:58,490 --> 01:00:55,670
you know against your premise ease and

1185
01:01:01,990 --> 01:00:58,500
looking at the consequences

1186
01:01:04,550 --> 01:01:02,000
of that um I don't think this leads to

1187
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:04,560
Neil as Emile is amidst the view that

1188
01:01:09,589 --> 01:01:06,690
you know there is no truth right it is

1189
01:01:12,740 --> 01:01:09,599
all power like it doesn't even lead to

1190
01:01:14,839 --> 01:01:12,750
skepticism Bechet strengthens your own

1191
01:01:20,359 --> 01:01:14,849
views I mean come at me with everything

1192
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:20,369
you've got to try to dissuade me of the

1193
01:01:25,790 --> 01:01:22,650
things I believe I am grateful for that

1194
01:01:27,620 --> 01:01:25,800
either you're going to show me I'm wrong

1195
01:01:33,020 --> 01:01:27,630
or you're going to strengthen my

1196
01:01:35,599 --> 01:01:33,030
arguments for why I'm right see I'm

1197
01:01:38,870 --> 01:01:35,609
always skeptical because I thought in

1198
01:01:40,849 --> 01:01:38,880
myself of of people who say I'm willing

1199
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:40,859
to change my mind about virtually

1200
01:01:45,290 --> 01:01:42,450
anything so please let me plead those

1201
01:01:46,810 --> 01:01:45,300
advocates for a second even if you say

1202
01:01:49,970 --> 01:01:46,820
well I'm willing to change my mind about

1203
01:01:53,630 --> 01:01:49,980
let's let's take a more prosaic example

1204
01:01:54,890 --> 01:01:53,640
about littering okay I'm willing to take

1205
01:01:58,400 --> 01:01:54,900
my mind about littering the literary

1206
01:02:02,900 --> 01:01:58,410
littering is actually great littering

1207
01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:02,910
littering like throwing garbage on okay

1208
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:05,520
Oh a so so whatever the example is you

1209
01:02:09,349 --> 01:02:07,410
have one view and then someone gives you

1210
01:02:10,730 --> 01:02:09,359
a convincing argument and you want to

1211
01:02:12,260 --> 01:02:10,740
cheat and then so you change your mind

1212
01:02:15,260 --> 01:02:12,270
maybe that means you have an updating

1213
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:15,270
mechanism like you have some way of

1214
01:02:20,990 --> 01:02:18,930
changing from leaf a to belief B do you

1215
01:02:24,020 --> 01:02:21,000
doubt the updating mechanism and then if

1216
01:02:25,190 --> 01:02:24,030
you were to doubt that then that means

1217
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:25,200
that you change your belief based on

1218
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:27,570
something else so what is that the top

1219
01:02:30,980 --> 01:02:29,730
and then why don't you doubt that

1220
01:02:33,020 --> 01:02:30,990
because that would just lead to an

1221
01:02:36,290 --> 01:02:33,030
infinite regress do you understand what

1222
01:02:40,300 --> 01:02:36,300
I'm saying or should I just sure I mean

1223
01:02:42,349 --> 01:02:40,310
I think we use the same mechanisms um

1224
01:02:44,450 --> 01:02:42,359
we're playing the same sort of

1225
01:02:47,060 --> 01:02:44,460
mechanisms it's not a different

1226
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:47,070
mechanism for every belief it's the same

1227
01:02:52,820 --> 01:02:50,250
cognitive mechanism that we're applying

1228
01:02:55,190 --> 01:02:52,830
for all of these things you know we

1229
01:02:57,800 --> 01:02:55,200
first of all you know literate literally

1230
01:02:59,690 --> 01:02:57,810
just like the Holocaust you know it's

1231
01:03:01,790 --> 01:02:59,700
not you know what you release about it

1232
01:03:03,859 --> 01:03:01,800
or not that's the first time this is

1233
01:03:08,989 --> 01:03:03,869
literally like a Holocaust

1234
01:03:10,970 --> 01:03:08,999
oh yeah you probably hear that that is

1235
01:03:14,839 --> 01:03:10,980
that's alright that's alright let's get

1236
01:03:17,390 --> 01:03:14,849
to let's get to okay let's get to the

1237
01:03:23,329 --> 01:03:17,400
Jordan Peterson

1238
01:03:25,069 --> 01:03:23,339
okay yeah right what did you what did

1239
01:03:27,079 --> 01:03:25,079
you want to ask Jordan what did you want

1240
01:03:28,670 --> 01:03:27,089
to respond to Jordan Peterson that you

1241
01:03:31,009 --> 01:03:28,680
didn't get to the chance to respond to

1242
01:03:33,230 --> 01:03:31,019
him with and what did you think about

1243
01:03:37,039 --> 01:03:33,240
that whole debate with William Craig

1244
01:03:42,019 --> 01:03:37,049
yeah oh well it surprised me very much

1245
01:03:45,170 --> 01:03:42,029
I don't debate people um I I dial up

1246
01:03:48,470 --> 01:03:45,180
I hate debates you can understand this

1247
01:03:51,710 --> 01:03:48,480
is my home approach I I don't enter into

1248
01:03:55,009 --> 01:03:51,720
these things train to win you know I

1249
01:03:57,109 --> 01:03:55,019
mean that need is and want to know what

1250
01:04:01,099 --> 01:03:57,119
are your reasons I want to ponder them I

1251
01:04:02,749 --> 01:04:01,109
want to yeah yeah let me rephrase me I'm

1252
01:04:06,710 --> 01:04:02,759
not calling I know the title on the

1253
01:04:08,599 --> 01:04:06,720
video I believe it said debate I feel

1254
01:04:10,009 --> 01:04:08,609
like was more people conversing and

1255
01:04:12,529 --> 01:04:10,019
asking each other questions I don't know

1256
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:12,539
if you thought it was a debate but it

1257
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:13,730
doesn't matter what did you think of it

1258
01:04:22,729 --> 01:04:14,970
okay

1259
01:04:24,319 --> 01:04:22,739
um so I had never heard of I of them and

1260
01:04:26,299 --> 01:04:24,329
it was it was sort of when I was asked

1261
01:04:28,910 --> 01:04:26,309
to do this thing it was like we want

1262
01:04:33,380 --> 01:04:28,920
three different views on the meaning of

1263
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:33,390
life and so and so I you know I gave a

1264
01:04:39,799 --> 01:04:37,890
sort of secularist naturalist view about

1265
01:04:41,479 --> 01:04:39,809
you know because it's often said and in

1266
01:04:43,329 --> 01:04:41,489
fact was said by that other person who

1267
01:04:49,069 --> 01:04:43,339
wasn't Peterson whose name I can't remem

1268
01:04:51,229 --> 01:04:49,079
what Moses knew young William yes said

1269
01:04:53,450 --> 01:04:51,239
something like yeah that you know if you

1270
01:04:56,420 --> 01:04:53,460
don't believe in God you can't have a

1271
01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:56,430
meaningful or moral or a purposeful life

1272
01:05:02,479 --> 01:05:00,480
you know you know and so um it's pretty

1273
01:05:10,099 --> 01:05:02,489
awesome thing to say to somebody

1274
01:05:11,630 --> 01:05:10,109
actually but young uh so I heard that

1275
01:05:14,180 --> 01:05:11,640
kind of thing before but anyway yeah so

1276
01:05:16,489 --> 01:05:14,190
yeah interested in presenting you know

1277
01:05:17,550 --> 01:05:16,499
you can I hadn't realized that the place

1278
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:17,560
that I was

1279
01:05:25,530 --> 01:05:23,530
Tina was actually a theological home it

1280
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:25,540
was the University of Toronto so I was

1281
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:27,610
sort of very surprised by the audience

1282
01:05:35,310 --> 01:05:30,730
they had a home base advantage oh yeah

1283
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:35,320
oh yeah you know and so um yeah yeah

1284
01:05:40,590 --> 01:05:36,130
really

1285
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:40,600
surprised I had never heard of Jordan

1286
01:05:46,950 --> 01:05:44,170
Peterson either I think he had he was

1287
01:05:51,060 --> 01:05:46,960
just coming into certain notoriety

1288
01:05:54,150 --> 01:05:51,070
because standing up to for he would be

1289
01:05:55,830 --> 01:05:54,160
dictated to about personal pronouns or

1290
01:05:58,800 --> 01:05:55,840
some you know something right in the

1291
01:06:01,500 --> 01:05:58,810
Kathy Newman video that exploded him yes

1292
01:06:03,990 --> 01:06:01,510
right and he just happened you know and

1293
01:06:05,970 --> 01:06:04,000
I I never know about these things I'm

1294
01:06:07,530 --> 01:06:05,980
thinking about girls incompleteness

1295
01:06:11,370 --> 01:06:07,540
theorems or something completely

1296
01:06:12,870 --> 01:06:11,380
unrelated so um so I was just really

1297
01:06:15,270 --> 01:06:12,880
surprised and then you know it's very

1298
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:15,280
stern talking and I was just train and

1299
01:06:20,430 --> 01:06:18,250
make sense what he was saying I mean

1300
01:06:23,790 --> 01:06:20,440
because there was this whole long thing

1301
01:06:26,010 --> 01:06:23,800
about suffering is the meaning of life

1302
01:06:27,570 --> 01:06:26,020
and it's like I'm just trying to

1303
01:06:31,230 --> 01:06:27,580
understand what that man and it seemed

1304
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:31,240
to just come down to his belief an

1305
01:06:36,570 --> 01:06:34,690
empirical belief you know that you know

1306
01:06:40,710 --> 01:06:36,580
terrible suffering can happen in life

1307
01:06:43,140 --> 01:06:40,720
that's undeniable I may be even the

1308
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:43,150
stronger belief which I don't know it's

1309
01:06:50,340 --> 01:06:45,090
true or not again it's an empirical

1310
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:50,350
belief that um suffering terrible

1311
01:06:55,740 --> 01:06:52,810
suffering has to happen life you know

1312
01:06:57,600 --> 01:06:55,750
that that I mean I think that's what he

1313
01:07:00,450 --> 01:06:57,610
was meaning by saying that it was the

1314
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:00,460
meaning of life and that we need

1315
01:07:08,790 --> 01:07:06,610
something very strong to make us feel

1316
01:07:14,220 --> 01:07:08,800
that life it's nevertheless worth living

1317
01:07:17,940 --> 01:07:14,230
and that he so there was that that you

1318
01:07:22,410 --> 01:07:17,950
know that suffering is unavoidable

1319
01:07:23,340 --> 01:07:22,420
perhaps he was saying and that's what he

1320
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:23,350
meant by saying it was the meaning of

1321
01:07:31,870 --> 01:07:29,210
life and that we need something and

1322
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:31,880
rationality will do thinking won't do

1323
01:07:39,430 --> 01:07:33,770
don't overthink it I remember he said

1324
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:39,440
that people love to hear that people

1325
01:07:45,010 --> 01:07:41,210
love to hear that go with the emotions

1326
01:07:46,990 --> 01:07:45,020
go with what you know and that's also

1327
01:07:50,079 --> 01:07:47,000
what he was saying like there is this

1328
01:07:54,250 --> 01:07:50,089
kind of transcendence this experience of

1329
01:07:57,370 --> 01:07:54,260
transcendence when you feel yourself or

1330
01:07:59,650 --> 01:07:57,380
know yourself to be something more than

1331
01:08:01,779 --> 01:07:59,660
human human is suffering but you know

1332
01:08:03,069 --> 01:08:01,789
feel you know what is transcendent

1333
01:08:06,130 --> 01:08:03,079
supposed to mean and you know something

1334
01:08:09,279 --> 01:08:06,140
your your takes you beyond your here

1335
01:08:11,740 --> 01:08:09,289
here here beyond the humans and and it's

1336
01:08:14,859 --> 01:08:11,750
not an intellectual thing it reveals

1337
01:08:16,510 --> 01:08:14,869
itself these were the things I think

1338
01:08:18,700 --> 01:08:16,520
that he was saying that's what I was

1339
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:18,710
able to get out of that I haven't read

1340
01:08:23,289 --> 01:08:20,690
him since or listened to him since but

1341
01:08:25,289 --> 01:08:23,299
that's you know what I was able to get

1342
01:08:29,019 --> 01:08:25,299
out in the moment of what he was saying

1343
01:08:31,329 --> 01:08:29,029
right that's not to be Peterson or speak

1344
01:08:32,709 --> 01:08:31,339
for him I think what he meant when it

1345
01:08:34,689 --> 01:08:32,719
comes to the meaning in life and

1346
01:08:38,289 --> 01:08:34,699
relationship to suffering is you can

1347
01:08:39,939 --> 01:08:38,299
take meaning to mean either effect so

1348
01:08:41,860 --> 01:08:39,949
sensory data it has a meaning or

1349
01:08:43,269 --> 01:08:41,870
implication for behavior so this cuff

1350
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:43,279
means something because it means well

1351
01:08:47,979 --> 01:08:44,810
there you go because it means you can

1352
01:08:50,380 --> 01:08:47,989
quench your thirst and suffering is that

1353
01:08:51,610 --> 01:08:50,390
so suffering is a meaning of life so

1354
01:08:53,110 --> 01:08:51,620
what someone says there's no meaning in

1355
01:08:55,419 --> 01:08:53,120
life well you do have a meaning it's

1356
01:08:57,579 --> 01:08:55,429
just negative what you're truly asking

1357
01:09:02,050 --> 01:08:57,589
is is there a positive meaning to offset

1358
01:09:06,249 --> 01:09:02,060
the negative okay basically the same

1359
01:09:12,070 --> 01:09:06,259
thing you know that that is oh but the

1360
01:09:17,349 --> 01:09:12,080
thing that I really um disagreed just a

1361
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:17,359
great is um look he started out by

1362
01:09:24,249 --> 01:09:20,449
talking about I mean really extreme case

1363
01:09:26,950 --> 01:09:24,259
of suffering fortunately most of us do

1364
01:09:29,079 --> 01:09:26,960
not have to go through you know a child

1365
01:09:31,809 --> 01:09:29,089
suffering in Auschwitz I come from a

1366
01:09:34,149 --> 01:09:31,819
family that was destroyed by that my

1367
01:09:35,590 --> 01:09:34,159
Hungarian family can guarantee his

1368
01:09:38,229 --> 01:09:35,600
family was destroyed by that so I grew

1369
01:09:40,539 --> 01:09:38,239
up on these stories I mean I lived these

1370
01:09:42,550 --> 01:09:40,549
stories I heard them said you were named

1371
01:09:45,100 --> 01:09:42,560
after yes

1372
01:09:47,530 --> 01:09:45,110
every child in my generation and next

1373
01:09:52,530 --> 01:09:47,540
generation was named after this very

1374
01:09:57,520 --> 01:09:52,540
large family that was like down so um I

1375
01:10:01,540 --> 01:09:57,530
am very and I think maybe this is this

1376
01:10:04,300 --> 01:10:01,550
motivated me and my entire life um I'm

1377
01:10:05,740 --> 01:10:04,310
how does this happen how does this

1378
01:10:09,430 --> 01:10:05,750
happen how does this happen in a

1379
01:10:12,850 --> 01:10:09,440
civilized culture like German culture my

1380
01:10:15,940 --> 01:10:12,860
family revered German culture as a

1381
01:10:19,700 --> 01:10:15,950
facility educated Jews do right and so

1382
01:10:23,910 --> 01:10:19,710
how can this happen genocide

1383
01:10:28,780 --> 01:10:25,920
you

1384
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:28,790
there's one second I'm sorry I'm sorry

1385
01:10:33,340 --> 01:10:31,370
my my headphones just died so I'm gonna

1386
01:10:40,420 --> 01:10:33,350
have to take them off and listen to you

1387
01:10:47,500 --> 01:10:40,430
from the speaker speaker because I value

1388
01:10:50,110 --> 01:10:47,510
your time your thank you so much great

1389
01:10:50,830 --> 01:10:50,120
thank you thank you so much thank you so

1390
01:10:52,180 --> 01:10:50,840
where were we

1391
01:10:56,740 --> 01:10:52,190
okay let me do that let me just have

1392
01:10:59,230 --> 01:10:56,750
something I'll just make it a a segue

1393
01:11:01,750 --> 01:10:59,240
okay so you were saying you were talking

1394
01:11:03,700 --> 01:11:01,760
about how you felt about the Petersons

1395
01:11:10,390 --> 01:11:03,710
debate and you said I think we just left

1396
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:10,400
off there yes so okay so this

1397
01:11:14,380 --> 01:11:12,650
transcending kind of experience that

1398
01:11:19,210 --> 01:11:14,390
just sort of reveals itself when you

1399
01:11:21,970 --> 01:11:19,220
feel you know you're you are in touch

1400
01:11:24,820 --> 01:11:21,980
with something transcendent that makes

1401
01:11:26,440 --> 01:11:24,830
you transcendent you know that there's

1402
01:11:28,990 --> 01:11:26,450
you're you know larger than like

1403
01:11:32,770 --> 01:11:29,000
something more than people who don't

1404
01:11:35,580 --> 01:11:32,780
have this experience this is there's a

1405
01:11:42,730 --> 01:11:35,590
very intoxicating feeling I know

1406
01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:42,740
extremely wary of it that because you

1407
01:11:49,230 --> 01:11:45,250
know I think that it's that that that is

1408
01:11:57,600 --> 01:11:49,240
Hartley that is a mechanism that can go

1409
01:12:02,290 --> 01:12:00,490
not to put too fine a point in it the

1410
01:12:03,820 --> 01:12:02,300
Nazis preached just such a thing when

1411
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:03,830
you were at these nerve if these at

1412
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:13,270
greater greater than you know the

1413
01:12:19,660 --> 01:12:16,730
destiny of the German people you know

1414
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:19,670
and it's it was just self revealing and

1415
01:12:24,310 --> 01:12:21,850
it says you know was such a powerful

1416
01:12:26,260 --> 01:12:24,320
feeling it's a kind of religious feeling

1417
01:12:29,530 --> 01:12:26,270
I mean religion has can happen as well

1418
01:12:31,060 --> 01:12:29,540
when you feel yourself chosen by God or

1419
01:12:35,020 --> 01:12:31,070
God is with you know and it's just a

1420
01:12:38,470 --> 01:12:35,030
sort of self revelatory feeling I mean

1421
01:12:39,010 --> 01:12:38,480
sometimes it can be in self lifting and

1422
01:12:41,980 --> 01:12:39,020
urine

1423
01:12:44,130 --> 01:12:41,990
you're more than human I hate anything

1424
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:44,140
that makes us more than you I'm very

1425
01:12:49,630 --> 01:12:46,970
wary of it

1426
01:12:55,590 --> 01:12:49,640
I know it's enchantments I know it's

1427
01:12:59,980 --> 01:12:55,600
intoxications I think human is enough

1428
01:13:02,650 --> 01:12:59,990
really use enough understanding your

1429
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:02,660
humanity and the humanity of everybody

1430
01:13:14,950 --> 01:13:08,090
else and how the same we are that's a

1431
01:13:17,590 --> 01:13:14,960
much safer way to feel and and and it is

1432
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:17,600
it's it's it's there's nothing

1433
01:13:29,490 --> 01:13:21,770
grandiose is nothing self-deceptive

1434
01:13:36,910 --> 01:13:33,790
alarms were going off between these two

1435
01:13:40,870 --> 01:13:36,920
people between these two men both of

1436
01:13:42,130 --> 01:13:40,880
whom know I think I realized that I was

1437
01:13:55,180 --> 01:13:42,140
one never mind I don't know anything

1438
01:14:01,030 --> 01:13:55,190
I've got there but I don't have really

1439
01:14:02,770 --> 01:14:01,040
sound grounds to okay so but you know on

1440
01:14:04,990 --> 01:14:02,780
the one side you know somebody saying

1441
01:14:07,900 --> 01:14:05,000
you know believe it's I do or your life

1442
01:14:09,990 --> 01:14:07,910
is you can't even world creature you

1443
01:14:14,470 --> 01:14:10,000
know you can't have no meaning you can

1444
01:14:18,100 --> 01:14:14,480
have no purpose and on the other side

1445
01:14:21,100 --> 01:14:18,110
they sort of like you know self you know

1446
01:14:23,410 --> 01:14:21,110
this transcendence that reveals itself

1447
01:14:25,390 --> 01:14:23,420
and and it reveals itself and it the

1448
01:14:26,860 --> 01:14:25,400
experience itself so when somebody tries

1449
01:14:28,510 --> 01:14:26,870
to talk you out of it or something

1450
01:14:32,170 --> 01:14:28,520
look this is taking you in a wrong place

1451
01:14:38,020 --> 01:14:32,180
no it is self proofing

1452
01:14:42,490 --> 01:14:38,030
self-authenticating this this is anti

1453
01:14:44,860 --> 01:14:42,500
rational and this is for me danger so

1454
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:44,870
both of these people all my alarms were

1455
01:14:51,090 --> 01:14:49,370
going off ah this is precisely these are

1456
01:14:55,380 --> 01:14:51,100
the things I don't believe in

1457
01:14:56,830 --> 01:14:55,390
and I and I see dangers in both of these

1458
01:15:01,030 --> 01:14:56,840
sorts of things

1459
01:15:03,430 --> 01:15:01,040
I see suffering suffering coming from

1460
01:15:06,459 --> 01:15:03,440
from trusting your feelings of self

1461
01:15:08,110 --> 01:15:06,469
transcendence or danger coming from

1462
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:08,120
thinking here that this way is morality

1463
01:15:13,270 --> 01:15:11,330
other people can't be moral right which

1464
01:15:17,140 --> 01:15:13,280
makes them less than you so either be

1465
01:15:17,470 --> 01:15:17,150
more than human or you're less than

1466
01:15:20,979 --> 01:15:17,480
human

1467
01:15:24,820 --> 01:15:20,989
I okay I think I've said enough I don't

1468
01:15:25,810 --> 01:15:24,830
believe I this is goes against

1469
01:15:28,510 --> 01:15:25,820
everything I believe in

1470
01:15:31,810 --> 01:15:28,520
I see I see now with respect to morality

1471
01:15:33,729 --> 01:15:31,820
are you more of a Sam Harris type that

1472
01:15:37,090 --> 01:15:33,739
would say that we can derive morality

1473
01:15:42,300 --> 01:15:37,100
from something objective or scientific

1474
01:15:50,979 --> 01:15:47,050
I am more with Harris than not that is I

1475
01:15:54,510 --> 01:15:50,989
believe morality is objective yes I do

1476
01:15:59,470 --> 01:15:54,520
I don't think it is the same thing as

1477
01:16:02,649 --> 01:15:59,480
science I don't think that and I'm not a

1478
01:16:05,590 --> 01:16:02,659
utilitarian as a matter of fact I don't

1479
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:05,600
I don't hold by that theory of morality

1480
01:16:11,979 --> 01:16:09,530
I think that perhaps Sam I haven't

1481
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:11,989
discussed this with him I would like to

1482
01:16:22,899 --> 01:16:16,610
discuss it with him more is too hasty to

1483
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:22,909
go from morality has to do with human

1484
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:27,170
well-being to utilitarianism Wright said

1485
01:16:33,310 --> 01:16:29,290
that there there there are other

1486
01:16:35,860 --> 01:16:33,320
alternatives not where you dismiss human

1487
01:16:38,050 --> 01:16:35,870
well-being I think he says about Rawls a

1488
01:16:43,620 --> 01:16:38,060
Content theory that I take quite

1489
01:16:47,229 --> 01:16:43,630
seriously that it is it's it's us it's

1490
01:16:49,750 --> 01:16:47,239
separate from it doesn't think of human

1491
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:49,760
well-being it this is not true this is

1492
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:52,730
certainly not true but it does you know

1493
01:16:59,410 --> 01:16:54,530
there are other alternates you can think

1494
01:17:02,410 --> 01:16:59,420
that morality is objective but it has to

1495
01:17:03,460 --> 01:17:02,420
do with human flourishing flourishing of

1496
01:17:07,330 --> 01:17:03,470
all

1497
01:17:09,250 --> 01:17:07,340
and not being a utilitarian and there

1498
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:09,260
are tremendous problems with

1499
01:17:16,180 --> 01:17:12,530
utilitarianism I do think there's a way

1500
01:17:20,370 --> 01:17:16,190
of deriving you know epochs and the

1501
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:20,380
fundamental fact of ethics which is the

1502
01:17:25,990 --> 01:17:23,210
equitable distribution of mattering over

1503
01:17:28,390 --> 01:17:26,000
all humans which is not to say that only

1504
01:17:30,790 --> 01:17:28,400
humans matter but it is to say that all

1505
01:17:32,530 --> 01:17:30,800
humans matter right other things to

1506
01:17:35,440 --> 01:17:32,540
other sentient creatures matter to you

1507
01:17:40,690 --> 01:17:35,450
the planet works of art matter also sees

1508
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:40,700
matter that aren't humans but that all

1509
01:17:44,110 --> 01:17:42,890
humans do matter and that's where we get

1510
01:17:46,410 --> 01:17:44,120
into some of the problems with

1511
01:17:49,830 --> 01:17:46,420
utilitarianism you know can you

1512
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:49,840
sacrifice an innocent if it's going to

1513
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:53,330
be good for the you know in general it's

1514
01:17:58,390 --> 01:17:56,330
gonna maximize well-being for everybody

1515
01:18:02,170 --> 01:17:58,400
or there's some things that just can't

1516
01:18:04,900 --> 01:18:02,180
you know it's a fundamental fact of

1517
01:18:06,310 --> 01:18:04,910
everybody's matter in the way that we

1518
01:18:11,830 --> 01:18:06,320
know ourselves to matter and certainly

1519
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:11,840
ones that we love matter then we run

1520
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:13,130
into certain problems with

1521
01:18:18,100 --> 01:18:15,170
utilitarianism but so anyway that's

1522
01:18:20,620 --> 01:18:18,110
basically all I would say I take moral

1523
01:18:23,350 --> 01:18:20,630
theory is very very difficult

1524
01:18:25,180 --> 01:18:23,360
how does happen how is it how our morals

1525
01:18:30,030 --> 01:18:25,190
objective like how does one make an

1526
01:18:34,870 --> 01:18:30,040
objective case for morality okay um

1527
01:18:41,250 --> 01:18:34,880
there are certain fundamental just a

1528
01:18:45,910 --> 01:18:41,260
victorie principles that we use in logic

1529
01:18:48,550 --> 01:18:45,920
in the rules of deduction in empirical

1530
01:18:52,990 --> 01:18:48,560
thinking the rules of induction and

1531
01:18:56,230 --> 01:18:53,000
abduction that give us the concepts of

1532
01:19:00,850 --> 01:18:56,240
evidence right and deduction that gives

1533
01:19:04,020 --> 01:19:00,860
us the concepts of proving things you

1534
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:04,030
know of logical consequence

1535
01:19:18,780 --> 01:19:08,850
and also in impractical reason right in

1536
01:19:21,150 --> 01:19:18,790
in pursuing our lives and we justify was

1537
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:21,160
the kind of content argument we cannot

1538
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:25,170
justify any of these just of Kotori

1539
01:19:31,170 --> 01:19:28,210
principles because they are the means by

1540
01:19:35,790 --> 01:19:31,180
which we justify in these various fields

1541
01:19:40,340 --> 01:19:35,800
if I try to prove logic I'm gonna have

1542
01:19:46,740 --> 01:19:42,480
that's where Descartes got himself into

1543
01:19:51,950 --> 01:19:46,750
the famous Cartesian Circle um David

1544
01:19:56,040 --> 01:19:51,960
Hume great an Enlightenment thinker

1545
01:19:58,530 --> 01:19:56,050
showed us that empirical reasoning you

1546
01:20:01,280 --> 01:19:58,540
know just thinking that the universe is

1547
01:20:04,050 --> 01:20:01,290
lot alike and so using certain

1548
01:20:06,030 --> 01:20:04,060
observable things as evidence for these

1549
01:20:08,460 --> 01:20:06,040
laws on the basis of which we make

1550
01:20:11,130 --> 01:20:08,470
predictions which we use in both

1551
01:20:16,410 --> 01:20:11,140
induction and abduction inference to the

1552
01:20:19,290 --> 01:20:16,420
best explanation they that presumption

1553
01:20:25,380 --> 01:20:19,300
that underlies all of this scientific

1554
01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:25,390
reasoning cannot itself be justified

1555
01:20:32,070 --> 01:20:27,930
because you can't justify it through

1556
01:20:34,350 --> 01:20:32,080
deductive reasoning not up I mean I

1557
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:34,360
can't use empirical reasoning because

1558
01:20:42,270 --> 01:20:38,410
empirical reasoning presumes the normal

1559
01:20:43,740 --> 01:20:42,280
logical nature you know that nature is a

1560
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:43,750
lot alike you know that there are laws

1561
01:20:48,750 --> 01:20:46,930
exactly fine and anomaly as Newtonian

1562
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:48,760
physics doesn't accord with their

1563
01:20:53,220 --> 01:20:50,770
observations we don't say oh well maybe

1564
01:20:55,950 --> 01:20:53,230
a nature is just not no like no we go

1565
01:21:01,160 --> 01:20:55,960
back when six our approximation of what

1566
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:01,170
the lots of nature are these you know in

1567
01:21:07,170 --> 01:21:04,810
all of our reasoning in logic and

1568
01:21:08,940 --> 01:21:07,180
empirical reason we there are certain

1569
01:21:13,290 --> 01:21:08,950
things look we these are the principles

1570
01:21:15,750 --> 01:21:13,300
that we are using and we can't pursue a

1571
01:21:19,649 --> 01:21:15,760
coherent life with

1572
01:21:24,989 --> 01:21:19,659
using them right in practical reason as

1573
01:21:28,379 --> 01:21:24,999
well I cannot pursue my life without

1574
01:21:31,049 --> 01:21:28,389
thinking you know that I matter you know

1575
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:31,059
if that in my pain matters you know that

1576
01:21:38,489 --> 01:21:35,650
if I'm so you know it's if I put my hand

1577
01:21:41,370 --> 01:21:38,499
on a hot rate it hurts

1578
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:41,380
I've got reason right to remove it or I

1579
01:21:47,100 --> 01:21:43,570
you know if something's going to be good

1580
01:21:50,970 --> 01:21:47,110
for me in the future you know then I

1581
01:21:53,279 --> 01:21:50,980
launch my plans and try to get there you

1582
01:21:55,169 --> 01:21:53,289
know and then and then all of my

1583
01:21:56,700 --> 01:21:55,179
emotions as well you know it's it's all

1584
01:22:00,989 --> 01:21:56,710
wrapped up you know what I feel

1585
01:22:03,149 --> 01:22:00,999
frustrated or happy or gratified hopeful

1586
01:22:05,609 --> 01:22:03,159
or fearful or anything all of this is

1587
01:22:07,770 --> 01:22:05,619
all presuming you know my life matters

1588
01:22:09,689 --> 01:22:07,780
so you know in some sense I can step

1589
01:22:12,239 --> 01:22:09,699
outside of my life and say yeah it

1590
01:22:14,399 --> 01:22:12,249
doesn't really matter um you know maybe

1591
01:22:16,379 --> 01:22:14,409
I'll decide it does it and then I'm

1592
01:22:19,470 --> 01:22:16,389
going to go into some sort of nihilistic

1593
01:22:24,470 --> 01:22:19,480
funk cuz my mattering matters to me so

1594
01:22:27,689 --> 01:22:24,480
much even thinking that I don't matter

1595
01:22:30,209 --> 01:22:27,699
you know is going to you know get me

1596
01:22:32,549 --> 01:22:30,219
into a funk you know because that itself

1597
01:22:33,359 --> 01:22:32,559
is a testament to how much you know we

1598
01:22:35,180 --> 01:22:33,369
all our lives

1599
01:22:39,450 --> 01:22:35,190
never trust we can't pursue them without

1600
01:22:44,459 --> 01:22:39,460
that sort of the kind of just at the

1601
01:22:46,290 --> 01:22:44,469
Katori mechanism that we use in pursuing

1602
01:22:48,359 --> 01:22:46,300
our lifes we can't coherently pursue our

1603
01:22:52,350 --> 01:22:48,369
lives just as but that logic or that

1604
01:22:54,509 --> 01:22:52,360
empirical reason we can't pursue or lies

1605
01:22:56,339 --> 01:22:54,519
without feeling that we I think you

1606
01:22:59,009 --> 01:22:56,349
might think well what is it about me

1607
01:23:00,839 --> 01:22:59,019
that makes me matter so much I mean I

1608
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:00,849
can't possibly be sure that I'm just me

1609
01:23:04,979 --> 01:23:02,650
because everybody else feels the same

1610
01:23:06,540 --> 01:23:04,989
way about them well maybe it's because

1611
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:06,550
some you know I belong to the right

1612
01:23:12,750 --> 01:23:09,010
people the right country the right this

1613
01:23:13,830 --> 01:23:12,760
you talk to enough people who maybe I

1614
01:23:18,209 --> 01:23:13,840
have the right reach the right

1615
01:23:21,089 --> 01:23:18,219
complexion right oh yeah well you know

1616
01:23:25,430 --> 01:23:21,099
slowly slowly those ideas have been

1617
01:23:27,149 --> 01:23:25,440
knocked down right that's progress right

1618
01:23:29,429 --> 01:23:27,159
and

1619
01:23:31,679 --> 01:23:29,439
you know basically what you would you

1620
01:23:33,390 --> 01:23:31,689
come out to look I can't prove soon my

1621
01:23:36,659 --> 01:23:33,400
life without just the presumption that I

1622
01:23:39,419 --> 01:23:36,669
matter the same as everybody else right

1623
01:23:41,580 --> 01:23:39,429
and so whatever whatever mattering I do

1624
01:23:44,339 --> 01:23:41,590
have or don't have it's equally

1625
01:23:46,620 --> 01:23:44,349
distributed it's her it's interrupts

1626
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:46,630
bethenny sounds more of a pragmatic

1627
01:23:52,109 --> 01:23:49,090
approach that is I can't pursue my life

1628
01:23:53,549 --> 01:23:52,119
if if I don't have this as a as a

1629
01:23:57,120 --> 01:23:53,559
grounding as a justification which I

1630
01:24:00,390 --> 01:23:57,130
can't justify but how what is that what

1631
01:24:03,839 --> 01:24:00,400
is that to say about the truth it's in

1632
01:24:07,919 --> 01:24:03,849
the same category with logic and

1633
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:07,929
empirical reasoning I can't justify

1634
01:24:15,569 --> 01:24:12,610
logic right without presuming logic I

1635
01:24:17,279 --> 01:24:15,579
can't justify empirically you know are

1636
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:17,289
we gonna stop feeling science are we

1637
01:24:23,549 --> 01:24:20,050
gonna stop believin in causality and

1638
01:24:26,669 --> 01:24:23,559
evidence and law likeness I mean there

1639
01:24:28,770 --> 01:24:26,679
these are fundamental you know to what

1640
01:24:32,219 --> 01:24:28,780
it is to pursue a coherent life it's the

1641
01:24:33,270 --> 01:24:32,229
best we can do however you did say

1642
01:24:34,620 --> 01:24:33,280
earlier you're willing to change your

1643
01:24:39,299 --> 01:24:34,630
mind about anything that means nothing

1644
01:24:46,739 --> 01:24:43,709
um it's a very oh yeah

1645
01:24:50,579 --> 01:24:46,749
I can't think myself outside the very

1646
01:24:53,309 --> 01:24:50,589
mechanisms of thinking right if so many

1647
01:24:56,189 --> 01:24:53,319
can give me an alternate to logic that

1648
01:24:58,199 --> 01:24:56,199
wouldn't require me to use logic in

1649
01:25:00,389 --> 01:24:58,209
order to apply this alternate logic

1650
01:25:04,739 --> 01:25:00,399
which is by the way the great lesson of

1651
01:25:05,579 --> 01:25:04,749
Lewis Carroll's brilliant essay what The

1652
01:25:08,159 --> 01:25:05,589
Tortoise and the hare

1653
01:25:09,989 --> 01:25:08,169
are right that is exhibit open alternate

1654
01:25:12,299 --> 01:25:09,999
logics will won't work because we have

1655
01:25:17,099 --> 01:25:12,309
to use our logic in order to apply that

1656
01:25:21,739 --> 01:25:17,109
new logic um that if these are the very

1657
01:25:24,629 --> 01:25:21,749
mechanisms by which Homo sapiens think

1658
01:25:26,699 --> 01:25:24,639
nobody is going to be able to get me to

1659
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:26,709
think outside them they can get me to

1660
01:25:34,529 --> 01:25:31,449
see I'm just that's the basics that's

1661
01:25:36,209 --> 01:25:34,539
that's how we think that's that we can

1662
01:25:38,609 --> 01:25:36,219
pursue or lies with Albus

1663
01:25:42,689 --> 01:25:38,619
that's a kind of justification we're

1664
01:25:46,469 --> 01:25:42,699
entitled to anything that we need just

1665
01:25:50,250 --> 01:25:46,479
in order to be able to pursue a coherent

1666
01:25:57,270 --> 01:25:50,260
life at all you know that the to be able

1667
01:25:59,399 --> 01:25:57,280
to pursue coherent conversation really I

1668
01:26:01,079 --> 01:25:59,409
agree to some degree but I'm just

1669
01:26:03,599 --> 01:26:01,089
playing devil's advocate so what if

1670
01:26:05,189 --> 01:26:03,609
someone says the skeptic that maybe even

1671
01:26:06,629 --> 01:26:05,199
the suicidal skeptic cause like my life

1672
01:26:09,719 --> 01:26:06,639
doesn't matter and now you say well it

1673
01:26:11,369 --> 01:26:09,729
matters because I'm I'm self questioning

1674
01:26:14,459 --> 01:26:11,379
but that's not what I mean when I say

1675
01:26:15,779 --> 01:26:14,469
matters I mean it doesn't matter enough

1676
01:26:18,649 --> 01:26:15,789
that I should go on or doesn't matter

1677
01:26:20,819 --> 01:26:18,659
enough that pain should be stopped from

1678
01:26:22,829 --> 01:26:20,829
self-inflicted pain or means whipping

1679
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:22,839
pain on others you know it can't happen

1680
01:26:28,559 --> 01:26:25,449
you know your life matters so much to

1681
01:26:32,069 --> 01:26:28,569
you and your own suffering matters so

1682
01:26:38,009 --> 01:26:32,079
much to you that you you know decide not

1683
01:26:40,859 --> 01:26:38,019
to continue it you know if life is and

1684
01:26:42,540 --> 01:26:40,869
at the same time so nothing can be taken

1685
01:26:45,209 --> 01:26:42,550
off the rails but mattering too much is

1686
01:26:47,069 --> 01:26:45,219
narcissism and that can lead you to want

1687
01:26:49,899 --> 01:26:47,079
to you know if you read the diaries of

1688
01:26:52,930 --> 01:26:49,909
people who are serial killers there

1689
01:26:55,390 --> 01:26:52,940
egotist most of the time so the real

1690
01:26:56,520 --> 01:26:55,400
thing to do and you know soaking this

1691
01:26:58,479 --> 01:26:56,530
whole thing of you know

1692
01:27:00,129 --> 01:26:58,489
self-transcendence and becoming an uber

1693
01:27:03,430 --> 01:27:00,139
mansion you know I think that this can

1694
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:03,440
also lead you to thinking and has in the

1695
01:27:12,189 --> 01:27:05,690
history in the sad history of humanity

1696
01:27:19,419 --> 01:27:12,199
has up and led to yeah two atrocities

1697
01:27:21,500 --> 01:27:19,429
yes I'm still a way of arguing that

1698
01:27:25,230 --> 01:27:21,510
would say look

1699
01:27:29,190 --> 01:27:25,240
the very mechanisms that we all have in

1700
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:29,200
in in thinking about our own lives and

1701
01:27:36,330 --> 01:27:33,250
even in deciding sometimes to give up

1702
01:27:39,690 --> 01:27:36,340
our lives for a cause or something you

1703
01:27:41,970 --> 01:27:39,700
know that certainly happens right this

1704
01:27:44,220 --> 01:27:41,980
doesn't mean that this doesn't entail

1705
01:27:46,110 --> 01:27:44,230
that one sometimes the very reason you

1706
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:46,120
have to live give me a reason to die

1707
01:27:53,040 --> 01:27:50,890
Socrates demonstrated to us in the very

1708
01:27:56,900 --> 01:27:53,050
dawn of philosophy so it's not an

1709
01:28:01,890 --> 01:27:56,910
argument that you know life above all

1710
01:28:04,680 --> 01:28:01,900
but it is that none of us can matter any

1711
01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:04,690
more than any others just as you can

1712
01:28:09,780 --> 01:28:06,730
have all you know that the this is the

1713
01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:09,790
principles that we all have in just

1714
01:28:13,440 --> 01:28:11,410
pursuing our lives or sometimes in

1715
01:28:16,140 --> 01:28:13,450
deciding that our lives should not be

1716
01:28:18,060 --> 01:28:16,150
pursued any further but you know that we

1717
01:28:25,380 --> 01:28:18,070
are invested in our life there's a

1718
01:28:27,690 --> 01:28:25,390
wonderful article by Tom Nagel on called

1719
01:28:29,060 --> 01:28:27,700
the observe the philosopher Tom Nagel

1720
01:28:33,060 --> 01:28:29,070
happen to have been my dissertation

1721
01:28:36,420 --> 01:28:33,070
adviser all that I do totally different

1722
01:28:38,310 --> 01:28:36,430
things than this but it's called the

1723
01:28:40,080 --> 01:28:38,320
absurd and it's sort of about this gap

1724
01:28:43,050 --> 01:28:40,090
you know when we're in our lives we have

1725
01:28:47,580 --> 01:28:43,060
to pursue our lives right I mean we have

1726
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:47,590
to our whole emotional apparatus is all

1727
01:28:53,220 --> 01:28:50,650
giving us feedback and how well this

1728
01:28:56,460 --> 01:28:53,230
life of mine is going know sometimes

1729
01:28:57,870 --> 01:28:56,470
life's can go pretty terribly and people

1730
01:29:02,490 --> 01:28:57,880
may actually even want to exit them

1731
01:29:05,610 --> 01:29:02,500
that's that's not the point

1732
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:05,620
but the point is you know that we are we

1733
01:29:10,740 --> 01:29:08,890
we pursue our lives I mean who else's

1734
01:29:14,420 --> 01:29:10,750
life are you're going to pursue have not

1735
01:29:18,420 --> 01:29:14,430
your own there is a certain commitment

1736
01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:18,430
to this life and then when you think

1737
01:29:22,770 --> 01:29:20,410
about well what justifies it the only

1738
01:29:24,470 --> 01:29:22,780
thing that can justify it are the kinds

1739
01:29:27,420 --> 01:29:24,480
of grounds that would justify

1740
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:27,430
everybody's life to themselves everybody

1741
01:29:31,529 --> 01:29:30,370
takes this their lives seriously that's

1742
01:29:35,819 --> 01:29:31,539
enough

1743
01:29:38,910 --> 01:29:35,829
that slavery is wrong right those slaves

1744
01:29:41,370 --> 01:29:38,920
lives mattered as much to them as my

1745
01:29:43,950 --> 01:29:41,380
life matters to me the lives of their

1746
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:43,960
children mattered much to them all of it

1747
01:29:49,020 --> 01:29:46,570
was there everything that's there when I

1748
01:29:52,529 --> 01:29:49,030
introspect about my life that makes me

1749
01:29:57,149 --> 01:29:52,539
know how much matters was there for them

1750
01:30:00,410 --> 01:29:57,159
right that richness and so that you know

1751
01:30:03,509 --> 01:30:00,420
to actually just come to terms with what

1752
01:30:05,759 --> 01:30:03,519
what we are just and being human that's

1753
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:05,769
what I say being human is enough I mean

1754
01:30:11,759 --> 01:30:08,250
if we can really understand the full

1755
01:30:13,500 --> 01:30:11,769
implications of that that would be

1756
01:30:15,810 --> 01:30:13,510
enough right this would be a good world

1757
01:30:19,319 --> 01:30:15,820
a better world you know oneself it

1758
01:30:23,939 --> 01:30:19,329
wouldn't cure coronavirus but it would

1759
01:30:27,810 --> 01:30:23,949
tell us how important the cure is for

1760
01:30:29,970 --> 01:30:27,820
everybody right not not more important

1761
01:30:32,910 --> 01:30:29,980
for the rich you can escape it or you

1762
01:30:34,680 --> 01:30:32,920
know in this country there's anyway okay

1763
01:30:38,189 --> 01:30:34,690
you wrap up you just use the word better

1764
01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:38,199
which implies progress however not every

1765
01:30:41,939 --> 01:30:40,210
culture would obviously not every

1766
01:30:43,859 --> 01:30:41,949
culture would believe that slavery is

1767
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:43,869
wrong for certain types of people even

1768
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:46,690
within your own race yeah does that mean

1769
01:30:53,419 --> 01:30:48,210
that progress is incompatible with

1770
01:30:59,810 --> 01:30:53,429
multiculturalism yeah well if

1771
01:31:02,910 --> 01:30:59,820
multiculturalism means not only you know

1772
01:31:06,750 --> 01:31:02,920
different morality different moralities

1773
01:31:10,049 --> 01:31:06,760
in that sense you know that one doesn't

1774
01:31:13,020 --> 01:31:10,059
accept the mattering the equal battery

1775
01:31:15,330 --> 01:31:13,030
of all human beings if that's an

1776
01:31:17,279 --> 01:31:15,340
objective fact which I think it is I

1777
01:31:21,950 --> 01:31:17,289
think that's an objective fact you know

1778
01:31:24,540 --> 01:31:21,960
that just comes out of how we

1779
01:31:26,729 --> 01:31:24,550
practically reason in our own case and

1780
01:31:28,140 --> 01:31:26,739
then have to universalize it to others

1781
01:31:31,500 --> 01:31:28,150
if that's an objective fact yeah they're

1782
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:31,510
making a huge mistake um yeah just as

1783
01:31:36,569 --> 01:31:33,610
the clinic does that mean that we can

1784
01:31:38,879 --> 01:31:36,579
rank orders cultures in terms of which

1785
01:31:41,700 --> 01:31:38,889
ones are more progressive and then if so

1786
01:31:44,189 --> 01:31:41,710
I think this is extremely yeah I'm not

1787
01:31:45,089 --> 01:31:44,199
trying true I'm not trying to put a

1788
01:31:47,639 --> 01:31:45,099
gotcha on you

1789
01:31:51,270 --> 01:31:47,649
but if so would you say that the West

1790
01:31:53,639 --> 01:31:51,280
has the most progressive cultures my

1791
01:31:56,580 --> 01:31:53,649
depends what you mean by progressive

1792
01:32:00,649 --> 01:31:56,590
look do I think that a culture that

1793
01:32:04,919 --> 01:32:00,659
doesn't believe in genocide is it's

1794
01:32:06,719 --> 01:32:04,929
morally superior to one that does

1795
01:32:08,279 --> 01:32:06,729
believe in Janice I guess of course I do

1796
01:32:11,339 --> 01:32:08,289
I mean that's what it is to believe in

1797
01:32:13,409 --> 01:32:11,349
the objectivity of morality so I mean as

1798
01:32:15,659 --> 01:32:13,419
soon as you say you know you commit

1799
01:32:21,869 --> 01:32:15,669
yourself to the objectivity of morality

1800
01:32:23,969 --> 01:32:21,879
which I put on the yes which I rank with

1801
01:32:27,089 --> 01:32:23,979
the objectivity of logic and computer

1802
01:32:28,830 --> 01:32:27,099
reasoning um you know of course you're

1803
01:32:33,239 --> 01:32:28,840
going to say that certain cultures got

1804
01:32:36,779 --> 01:32:33,249
things terribly wrong yes and rape

1805
01:32:38,399 --> 01:32:36,789
cultures get things terribly wrong even

1806
01:32:40,109 --> 01:32:38,409
if let's just do a thought experiment

1807
01:32:41,969 --> 01:32:40,119
and this culture who's that said that

1808
01:32:43,020 --> 01:32:41,979
genocide is great be killed all the rest

1809
01:32:46,049 --> 01:32:43,030
of people who thought the genocide

1810
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:46,059
wasn't great and now going back to your

1811
01:32:49,529 --> 01:32:47,530
argument about it's a human universal

1812
01:32:52,169 --> 01:32:49,539
now they have as a human Universal

1813
01:32:53,549 --> 01:32:52,179
genocide is okay and they can reason and

1814
01:32:55,199 --> 01:32:53,559
say that well look it's a human

1815
01:32:59,549 --> 01:32:55,209
universal this is the way our brains are

1816
01:33:00,929 --> 01:32:59,559
built this is objective morality so then

1817
01:33:04,349 --> 01:33:00,939
we have two disparate accounts on

1818
01:33:08,129 --> 01:33:04,359
whatever yes morality does not depend on

1819
01:33:13,020 --> 01:33:08,139
how our brains are built it's not

1820
01:33:14,939 --> 01:33:13,030
reducible I think that Harris is wrong

1821
01:33:17,250 --> 01:33:14,949
about this I don't think that the

1822
01:33:18,929 --> 01:33:17,260
neuroscience is wrong relevant you know

1823
01:33:22,679 --> 01:33:18,939
and the fact that consciousness is a

1824
01:33:24,959 --> 01:33:22,689
brain process is all relevant to this no

1825
01:33:28,830 --> 01:33:24,969
they would still be wrong even though it

1826
01:33:32,580 --> 01:33:28,840
it would be an empirical fact that

1827
01:33:35,820 --> 01:33:32,590
everybody just everybody bird just flew

1828
01:33:35,820 --> 01:33:35,830
into one of her windows

1829
01:33:35,830 --> 01:33:40,790
it was a big birds of hopefully survived

1830
01:33:45,919 --> 01:33:43,459
you know even if it was a universally

1831
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:45,929
accepted fact that everybody believes

1832
01:33:54,950 --> 01:33:49,730
that yes he's the sub-base you know once

1833
01:33:57,020 --> 01:33:54,960
tainted our Aryan purity and that was a

1834
01:33:59,870 --> 01:33:57,030
worst world we would be wrong that was a

1835
01:34:01,700 --> 01:33:59,880
better world and what they did in order

1836
01:34:04,700 --> 01:34:01,710
to get you this world of universal

1837
01:34:06,319 --> 01:34:04,710
agreement was egregious and was

1838
01:34:09,890 --> 01:34:06,329
objectively wrong

1839
01:34:12,910 --> 01:34:09,900
those people mattered those people

1840
01:34:16,310 --> 01:34:12,920
mattered they're suffering mattered

1841
01:34:21,399 --> 01:34:16,320
nothing will ever convince me I didn't

1842
01:34:24,530 --> 01:34:21,409
that that is wrong you know that there's

1843
01:34:26,060 --> 01:34:24,540
my agree I agree I'm just I just hope

1844
01:34:27,649 --> 01:34:26,070
you know I was playing devil's advocate

1845
01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:27,659
but then we just found something that

1846
01:34:33,169 --> 01:34:30,449
you said that you is immovable when you

1847
01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:33,179
were willing to because I cannot think

1848
01:34:40,490 --> 01:34:36,770
it is immutable because it derives from

1849
01:34:43,990 --> 01:34:40,500
the very mechanisms by which I think

1850
01:34:47,299 --> 01:34:44,000
about my own life in order to pursue it

1851
01:34:50,950 --> 01:34:47,309
it derives from that you know and

1852
01:34:55,069 --> 01:34:50,960
anything I think that's a way of

1853
01:34:58,160 --> 01:34:55,079
justifying a whole lot of propositions

1854
01:35:01,459 --> 01:34:58,170
we do it in logic we do it in empirical

1855
01:35:03,439 --> 01:35:01,469
reasoning how do we do it in practical

1856
01:35:07,970 --> 01:35:03,449
reason as well as in moral reasoning as

1857
01:35:10,310 --> 01:35:07,980
well that and then and I would equate

1858
01:35:12,200 --> 01:35:10,320
all of them so that's a different way of

1859
01:35:17,479 --> 01:35:12,210
going about trying to justify these

1860
01:35:22,490 --> 01:35:17,489
things right there's no coherence you

1861
01:35:24,919 --> 01:35:22,500
know without certain mechanisms of

1862
01:35:29,020 --> 01:35:24,929
thinking I can't think myself outside of

1863
01:35:31,640 --> 01:35:29,030
them because they are what I think with

1864
01:35:34,720 --> 01:35:31,650
so what's next for you work in the

1865
01:35:40,250 --> 01:35:34,730
audience find more out more about you

1866
01:35:43,970 --> 01:35:40,260
well I've written 10 books and they are

1867
01:35:47,330 --> 01:35:43,980
you know both some fiction fiction and

1868
01:35:51,260 --> 01:35:47,340
nonfiction I often in the past have used

1869
01:35:53,320 --> 01:35:51,270
novels for fictional and I think there

1870
01:35:59,350 --> 01:35:53,330
are certain things that

1871
01:36:00,520 --> 01:35:59,360
one can do it in fiction they help you

1872
01:36:02,230 --> 01:36:00,530
wrote a fictional book that's actually

1873
01:36:04,210 --> 01:36:02,240
how I found out about your husband who's

1874
01:36:06,120 --> 01:36:04,220
a physicist because I saw you wrote one

1875
01:36:08,500 --> 01:36:06,130
that deals with quantum physics and

1876
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:08,510
background in physics and math and so I

1877
01:36:13,030 --> 01:36:09,770
was wondering well you know most people

1878
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:13,040
misuse quantum physics it tells like

1879
01:36:18,450 --> 01:36:15,890
well let's see Oh her husband at the

1880
01:36:20,230 --> 01:36:18,460
time was okay great so at least he could

1881
01:36:25,060 --> 01:36:20,240
corrected her if she was going off the

1882
01:36:27,130 --> 01:36:25,070
rails like Deepak Chopra I can hear that

1883
01:36:29,470 --> 01:36:27,140
that's it at least then if you were

1884
01:36:30,970 --> 01:36:29,480
saying something that wasn't comporting

1885
01:36:34,120 --> 01:36:30,980
with the data when it comes to quantum

1886
01:36:40,180 --> 01:36:34,130
physics or taking the metaphor to to

1887
01:36:41,890 --> 01:36:40,190
metaphorically like Deepak might served

1888
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:41,900
as a correction mechanism well I

1889
01:36:49,630 --> 01:36:43,610
actually studied physics as well that

1890
01:36:51,250 --> 01:36:49,640
was my first major and so I actually

1891
01:36:56,130 --> 01:36:51,260
come from a background in math and

1892
01:37:01,540 --> 01:36:56,140
physics never you know I would do

1893
01:37:04,150 --> 01:37:01,550
something like another but yeah I hear

1894
01:37:07,420 --> 01:37:04,160
so I went from physics to philosophy to

1895
01:37:09,250 --> 01:37:07,430
physics and so and people who do

1896
01:37:14,050 --> 01:37:09,260
philosophy physics usually have to know

1897
01:37:16,210 --> 01:37:14,060
good to you're basic yeah but yeah I

1898
01:37:19,060 --> 01:37:16,220
mean I have always been interested in

1899
01:37:21,130 --> 01:37:19,070
the foundations of quantum mechanics

1900
01:37:22,990 --> 01:37:21,140
which is you know philosophical you can

1901
01:37:25,360 --> 01:37:23,000
use this theory and know how to use this

1902
01:37:28,330 --> 01:37:25,370
theory and disagree tremendously on

1903
01:37:30,430 --> 01:37:28,340
interpretations of quantum mechanics and

1904
01:37:32,650 --> 01:37:30,440
I'm also always been extremely

1905
01:37:34,900 --> 01:37:32,660
interested in the not really

1906
01:37:37,450 --> 01:37:34,910
contradiction but the tension between

1907
01:37:40,810 --> 01:37:37,460
relativity theory and quantum mechanics

1908
01:37:43,660 --> 01:37:40,820
you know our two most successful

1909
01:37:46,930 --> 01:37:43,670
theories robust as far as predictions

1910
01:37:52,060 --> 01:37:46,940
are made but there is a deep tension

1911
01:37:53,860 --> 01:37:52,070
between them and so you know that that

1912
01:37:57,880 --> 01:37:53,870
is very interesting you know and that is

1913
01:38:01,060 --> 01:37:57,890
said something yeah and the novel came

1914
01:38:03,490 --> 01:38:01,070
out of that yes and I you know I'm in

1915
01:38:06,310 --> 01:38:03,500
being interested in you

1916
01:38:07,750 --> 01:38:06,320
potations of quantum mechanics I became

1917
01:38:12,960 --> 01:38:07,760
very interested in David bones

1918
01:38:17,620 --> 01:38:15,730
it caught on more in bed my ex-husband

1919
01:38:23,530 --> 01:38:17,630
had a lot to do with it

1920
01:38:26,080 --> 01:38:23,540
right yeah he's a very strong

1921
01:38:29,770 --> 01:38:26,090
well me and we knew david bohm towards

1922
01:38:33,460 --> 01:38:29,780
the end of his life and he was a

1923
01:38:35,440 --> 01:38:33,470
fantastic guy and the whole thing that

1924
01:38:36,940 --> 01:38:35,450
happened to him I mean it's you know

1925
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:36,950
it's a very dramatic it's a novelistic

1926
01:38:42,030 --> 01:38:39,170
kind of thing I mean it was sort of

1927
01:38:49,590 --> 01:38:42,040
inspired by bohmian interpretation of

1928
01:38:52,360 --> 01:38:49,600
Galax I mean so you know yeah I think I

1929
01:38:54,010 --> 01:38:52,370
feel bad that I implied like like the

1930
01:38:55,930 --> 01:38:54,020
the radical left would say that I was

1931
01:38:58,660 --> 01:38:55,940
indoctrinated by the patriarchy to

1932
01:39:00,070 --> 01:38:58,670
suggest that that your book was correct

1933
01:39:01,870 --> 01:39:00,080
because of your husband or not because

1934
01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:01,880
of your own knowledge my bad

1935
01:39:08,410 --> 01:39:05,570
no it's it's it's perfectly fine and you

1936
01:39:12,400 --> 01:39:08,420
know most people who you know write

1937
01:39:17,230 --> 01:39:12,410
novels you know don't have a background

1938
01:39:21,160 --> 01:39:17,240
in the more technical stuff it's too bad

1939
01:39:23,290 --> 01:39:21,170
right because I you know like um I think

1940
01:39:27,220 --> 01:39:23,300
that they should feed off of each other

1941
01:39:29,860 --> 01:39:27,230
you know the arts and and the technical

1942
01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:29,870
sciences and both are extremely

1943
01:39:35,050 --> 01:39:32,570
beautiful and their beauty has a lot to

1944
01:39:38,380 --> 01:39:35,060
do with structure and so I mean to me it

1945
01:39:42,220 --> 01:39:38,390
just seems very natural so anyway yeah I

1946
01:39:47,410 --> 01:39:42,230
sometimes write novels that you want to

1947
01:39:50,470 --> 01:39:47,420
plug any website I don't have a website

1948
01:39:52,440 --> 01:39:50,480
and I'm not on Facebook but when I

1949
01:39:55,810 --> 01:39:52,450
published my last book you know I

1950
01:39:56,440 --> 01:39:55,820
completely surround every book on links

1951
01:40:00,750 --> 01:39:56,450
to your books

1952
01:40:04,210 --> 01:40:00,760
yeah yeah um but when I last book was

1953
01:40:07,950 --> 01:40:04,220
published my publisher sort of begged me

1954
01:40:11,860 --> 01:40:07,960
to get some sort of social media

1955
01:40:13,750 --> 01:40:11,870
presence and so I I do have a Twitter

1956
01:40:14,260 --> 01:40:13,760
feed but I don't lose it or check it

1957
01:40:16,870 --> 01:40:14,270
often

1958
01:40:20,440 --> 01:40:16,880
yeah it's okay I'll still include it

1959
01:40:21,910 --> 01:40:20,450
and and that's very very last you can

1960
01:40:23,920 --> 01:40:21,920
answer the super super briefly it's

1961
01:40:26,470 --> 01:40:23,930
about women in the STEM fields we were

1962
01:40:28,420 --> 01:40:26,480
talking about that so do you feel like

1963
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:28,430
women are still discriminated against in

1964
01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:30,490
the STEM fields or if they ever were or

1965
01:40:42,910 --> 01:40:37,060
you know I'm outside of the STEM fields

1966
01:40:49,170 --> 01:40:42,920
now but you know I did I think you know

1967
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:49,180
there is in general a presumption of

1968
01:40:56,190 --> 01:40:52,610
there's often a presumption that women

1969
01:40:59,650 --> 01:40:56,200
are don't think as well but you know and

1970
01:41:04,330 --> 01:40:59,660
you know one of the you know men are

1971
01:41:08,530 --> 01:41:04,340
often very interested and very motivated

1972
01:41:11,500 --> 01:41:08,540
to impress women and nerdy men try to

1973
01:41:17,890 --> 01:41:11,510
impress women with their nerdiness I

1974
01:41:26,650 --> 01:41:17,900
mean I've had I serums explain to me by

1975
01:41:29,110 --> 01:41:26,660
you know OBGYNs right who say Minh said

1976
01:41:32,830 --> 01:41:29,120
a party and this woman introduced me to

1977
01:41:34,210 --> 01:41:32,840
her her husband was a doctor and said oh

1978
01:41:36,670 --> 01:41:34,220
you know Rebecca's very interested in

1979
01:41:41,710 --> 01:41:36,680
Goodall and he starts explaining to me

1980
01:41:43,480 --> 01:41:41,720
their dozen cleanest parents and he his

1981
01:41:46,720 --> 01:41:43,490
knowledge had come from reading the

1982
01:41:49,180 --> 01:41:46,730
review of my book in the New York Times

1983
01:41:51,340 --> 01:41:49,190
Book Review that was his knowledge and

1984
01:41:53,230 --> 01:41:51,350
then I kept trying to say oh yeah that

1985
01:41:55,360 --> 01:41:53,240
was of my book he couldn't take it in

1986
01:41:58,030 --> 01:41:55,370
that that was my book right he was so

1987
01:41:59,440 --> 01:41:58,040
busy you know explaining it to me you

1988
01:42:03,190 --> 01:41:59,450
know and of course explaining it wrong

1989
01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:03,200
so look you experience these things you

1990
01:42:08,770 --> 01:42:06,890
know as a woman you do man eight has to

1991
01:42:12,010 --> 01:42:08,780
do with you know the psychology and

1992
01:42:14,620 --> 01:42:12,020
whatever you know I will say this about

1993
01:42:16,930 --> 01:42:14,630
you know I've been in a lot of fields as

1994
01:42:19,140 --> 01:42:16,940
I say you know I've been in technical

1995
01:42:22,060 --> 01:42:19,150
fields I was in philosophy

1996
01:42:23,979 --> 01:42:22,070
manners I guess I still AM I've been in

1997
01:42:27,160 --> 01:42:23,989
the arts

1998
01:42:30,550 --> 01:42:27,170
I think stem this is my own personal

1999
01:42:32,830 --> 01:42:30,560
experience is the best for all of these

2000
01:42:35,620 --> 01:42:32,840
things yep there's always that sort of

2001
01:42:37,750 --> 01:42:35,630
calm Annette who's mad at mutes and all

2002
01:42:43,290 --> 01:42:37,760
this stuff right you get used to this

2003
01:42:46,330 --> 01:42:43,300
right and you call me try to explain

2004
01:42:50,500 --> 01:42:46,340
doesn't matter

2005
01:42:54,190 --> 01:42:50,510
here's what math and the sciences have

2006
01:42:57,490 --> 01:42:54,200
that the arts and philosophy doesn't

2007
01:42:59,890 --> 01:42:57,500
have to the same extent in minute you

2008
01:43:04,479 --> 01:42:59,900
can prove your results right you've got

2009
01:43:06,490 --> 01:43:04,489
a good proof you know they can smell a

2010
01:43:09,160 --> 01:43:06,500
until the cows come in it's not gonna

2011
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:09,170
make a difference you've got a good than

2012
01:43:15,729 --> 01:43:12,170
poop for a hard theorem an elegant proof

2013
01:43:17,950 --> 01:43:15,739
it can be checked out with the sciences

2014
01:43:22,180 --> 01:43:17,960
we've got reality

2015
01:43:24,850 --> 01:43:22,190
we've got predictions you know so a I'm

2016
01:43:29,290 --> 01:43:24,860
very good friends with a cosmologists

2017
01:43:31,270 --> 01:43:29,300
female cosmologists and who's went

2018
01:43:36,459 --> 01:43:31,280
through all sorts of problems wasn't

2019
01:43:40,390 --> 01:43:36,469
tenured and then she made some radical

2020
01:43:47,140 --> 01:43:40,400
prediction the evidence just came in

2021
01:43:49,860 --> 01:43:47,150
Thank You universe stem right you can

2022
01:43:53,620 --> 01:43:49,870
make pretty you know you've caught

2023
01:43:57,940 --> 01:43:53,630
universe can give can give you data and

2024
01:43:59,709 --> 01:43:57,950
can validate your your and you so it's

2025
01:44:03,220 --> 01:43:59,719
in the arts it's all much more

2026
01:44:04,630 --> 01:44:03,230
subjective and I think women have a

2027
01:44:07,570 --> 01:44:04,640
tougher time I mean there are certain

2028
01:44:10,930 --> 01:44:07,580
kinds of women subjects you write novels

2029
01:44:12,729 --> 01:44:10,940
about family dynamics and you know

2030
01:44:17,229 --> 01:44:12,739
that's what you know and you're gonna do

2031
01:44:19,510 --> 01:44:17,239
fine but you know I I do think that you

2032
01:44:22,150 --> 01:44:19,520
know since there's really nothing like

2033
01:44:25,530 --> 01:44:22,160
what you get in math proof or in the

2034
01:44:28,630 --> 01:44:25,540
sciences I'm sure a call absence to show

2035
01:44:32,229 --> 01:44:28,640
that's what your work is good or not in

2036
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:32,239
the arts it's much much harder that's uh

2037
01:44:38,940 --> 01:44:33,290
yeah

2038
01:44:41,440 --> 01:44:38,950
so give as far as being a woman

2039
01:44:45,460 --> 01:44:41,450
it's better to be in stem that's what I

2040
01:44:48,550 --> 01:44:45,470
say does that make sense to you

2041
01:44:52,630 --> 01:44:48,560
thank you so much Rebecca appreciate

2042
01:44:54,670 --> 01:44:52,640
your your generosity with your time well

2043
01:44:58,270 --> 01:44:54,680
I appreciate your questions they're good

2044
01:45:02,100 --> 01:44:58,280
and you know they were their substitute